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Post by tim125 on Sept 5, 2004 7:44:24 GMT -6
trappnmn-show us some facts that would back your theories-
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Post by Steve Gappa on Sept 5, 2004 7:51:17 GMT -6
maybe the problem is you don't understand the definition of "theroy"?
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Post by wheelie on Sept 5, 2004 8:04:03 GMT -6
p.s., I just thought of the name for my fox video, "bob wendts FOXES TO THE MOON" Foxes to the moon.....hmmmm....Is that a poke to the fox saying that they are just plain dummies and anyone can trap them in number if they have the population?
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 5, 2004 8:20:36 GMT -6
he he . In regard to the person that asked why local populations aren`t affected more if fox/coyotes don`t get lure shy. They are affected! I am not bragging or blowing smoke, when I pull out you can`t find a track left! The only reason there are more there at a later date or a year later is not from reproduction of the missed animals, but from relocation into the area by new animals from far off untrapped areas. Coyotes can come from even hundreds of miles (purdue ear tag studies showed 380 miles on a common indiana coyote in just 30 days). The classic study of over 700 ear tagged red fox "red fox in iowa" showed a calender year later the average male was 10.8 miles from its birth location and the average female 5.8. It also showed extremes of hundreds of miles on certain individuals. Thank god for all this moving around or a competant trapper could indeed trap them out totally and easily. Come to sheep country of campbell or natrona counties in wyoming and I will challenge you to find more than 3 coyote tracks- you can`t as they have been "eliminated" over a 100 mile area except for a few nomads and the migraters in come late winter- and they are soon dinged before spring lambing. wipeout of local populations is indeed possible down to the 1-2% levels. You want coyortes by the dump truck loads , go to cattle country where nobody bothers them but the recreational callers and pot shot-ers
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Post by trappnman on Sept 5, 2004 8:28:29 GMT -6
1) "There are many top of the crop ADC coyote men that would disagree with your theroy"
Please name names.
2) "You stated you caught around 100-125 I beleive during the summer months over 5 years thats 20 coyotes avg per 8 months Feb-Sept"
Bad math- its answering the phone and either 1) removing a coyote for a farmer 2) or putting on a few collars for the dnr. More like a few traps for a few days- in the EXACT same areas where I fur trap. So- average a few days each month- and my daily take of coyotes is more likely higher than yours.
When did I say "I hit it hard"? If anything- I SAID I TAKE THE COYOTES I AM HIRED TO TAKE
3) btw- the real good ADC men I know, seldom set traps in the off season or indeed, any part of the season.
4) my whole problem- you stated as A FACT that this research "proving" your theroy exists. I asked you to produce it- and ask again- but you will not cause I suspect you cannot.
Im what I am- a 75-100 year coyote man- trap them in the off season when I need to- If I ever claimed otherwise- show me
Now- I'm done pissing with you- if you want to expand on YOUR theroy, do so- but leave me out of it.
For the last time- facts are facts and theroys are theroys-
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Post by redfoxtrapper2000 on Sept 5, 2004 10:45:44 GMT -6
Very interesting topic,seems everyone has a theory or idea. First Bob makes a great point about the infiltration of coyotes to an area rather than breeding stock filling the void .Hypothetically if your location did not allow this or say the the population is totally confined and is replenished only by breeders .Then you could go a bit farther and consider that each coyote is a individual which is a close copy of the genetics of his parents gene pool. Sooo it would be possible that the survivors are the coyotes that were not attracted to the original lure which then could through adaptation give a scientific theory to burn out . Sorry sometimes I definatly think on paper to much .
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 5, 2004 11:09:15 GMT -6
interestingly, I know of no isolated coyote populations in the u.s., but I do know of many many isolated red fox populations in the u.s., and have the shame of trapping several out to the point of extinction levels. What has happened all over the u.s.(not md. and sw pa.) in the past 30 years is that the reds have been beat back to small residential areas (towns) and the coyotes rule the rural areas, allowing no red fox reproduction except around hi human activity areas such as industrial sites, major interstate berms or golf courses and the like. So here are 4-5 fox familys and dens around the edges of many many small towns of 5-10,000 people, east and west , and then maybe 10-50 miles to the next town where the next small group of red fox live. These towny fox if not harvested will run off the young in the fall and they then cross over the sage or corn fields (coyote country) and must travel thru the mine field of coyotes all the way to the next town that is that 10-50 miles away to find a safe haven to find mates and secure denning areas. The coyotes continually push them till they find these new safe havens. My thoughts are many perish en route but some make it to re-stock the trapped out towns. It is a slow process tho and they can`t take annual hard pressure from trappers and come back like the old pre-coyote days. Rough row to hoe for the fox and even rougher for a trapper knowing when to pull and leave seed since now the migrations of the 70`s no longer occur. The "red fox in iowa" tagging studies were done in the pre-coyote days of the 70`s. I bet if done now they would show 30-40-50 mile migrations of fox to new safe havens as commonplace. The coyote has really upset the apple cart of known red fox behavior and migration patterns. A wise trapper understanding these new coyote mandated fox dynamics can still make good red fox catches where other trappers starve.
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Post by redfoxtrapper2000 on Sept 5, 2004 11:27:35 GMT -6
Very good post Bob , I also dont know of any competely isolated populations of coyotes but, do beleive variables such as ,some populations limited by towns, lakes, rivers ect. may be more isolated than others could through theory show more sign of lure burn out .However as you stated using mostly urine or gland type attractors which most all of the population would be attracted to would limit or even nulify any sign of burnout those type lures So there could be many variables to consider if trying to test a theory on lure burnout. I guess in my first post this was basically what I was tring to convey and get response to.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 5, 2004 15:49:35 GMT -6
Steve, you wanted a few names of ADC that beleive there is lure habiuation. 1. Craig Ogorman quote, "the last 100 years of coyote control data is replete showing coyote's response to each tool,set or lure compund in time reaches habituation, simply because seldom in life is anything 100%" end quote.2. Vern Dorn wrote I first used a coyote getter in 1937 and said" I didn't think I would ever have to set a trap again" because of poor shells, sides pulls and everybody using the same tool reduced it's effect".3. Slim Peterson writes in Predator trapping problems and soulutions, that when ones lure ingreident get's used by too many lure manufacuters and trappers it losses it's effect. I would read recapturing trained coyotes by Craig and you can see strong backing of this topic. He goes on to say Government studies have confirmed what good coyote coyote men already new and that was coyotes can develop a teamed avoidance of control tools. An adult coyote that has had a bad experience at a hole set combined with a multi ingreident bait or lure will there after avoid sets where there is disturbed ground and multi combination lures/baits. While I don't have the papers in front of me, this makes sense. Maybe just another person with his theroy as well.
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Post by BK on Sept 6, 2004 9:30:19 GMT -6
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Post by k9 on Sept 6, 2004 9:34:54 GMT -6
Another Dorn quote, "Do it right the first time and there will be no smart coyotes".
I think that a pinched coyote may shy from that lure for a while, then go back to it over time. However one that hasn't been pinched, should be pretty open to getting caught in the next set.
However most of us have seen exceptions to all coyote "expected behavior".
I would be interested to know, if Vern Dorn's earlier thoughts about getters, remained the same with M-44's. A side pull on a loud getter, would definately shock and traumatize a coyote, while an M-44 would be no big deal, since it is spring loaded, while with getters you had a report of a cartridge.
Kind of like being pinched hard in a trap, versus just having it blow dirt in the coyotes face.
It all boils down to how much a coytoe can put things together. Can he associate the fact that he side pulled an M-44 to the fact that he was in danger. Can he single out the fact that he ate an old drop bait that no longer had a lethal dose, with the fact that he got sick. I do not think so.
I personally believe that certain coyotes do certain things, just cause that's the way they are. I by no means am near the coyote killer that Dorn, OGorman, Pedersen, Wendt, Gappa, or most others on this forum are. But I would stand by my logic.
I have an Airedale right now that is very aloof. The first time she was ever near a trap was being out with me. She is the first dog I have ever owned that has never been caught in one of my traps. She is VERY careful about EVERYTHING that she does. Until live game hits the scene then it is all hell breaking loose.
Her aloof behavior around my traps, her actual avoidance of them is something I have been watching and learning from. Verrrrrry interesting (quote from Laugh In most of you young guys won't get it).
For the most part, I'm with Gappa on this one. I think that the only way we educate coytoes is when we pinch them, and then they drop thier guard over time. I do not think that they become habituated persay, but I think that if thier curiousity get's satisfied at say a non working set, they may not come over to it as eagerly the next time, unless something new is there.
However if I dig a small hole in my yard, and put a lure there that my dogs want to get or roll in, that is the first place they will go everyday, when I let them out. They will investigate it daily, with eager intentions.
INteresting topic.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 9, 2004 14:28:35 GMT -6
K-9 states my dog loves to roll and smell a lure with a small hole, day after day. That could be true because there are no negatives associated with that hole set up. Add the trap and blend really well, how many times is that dog going back and working the hole and lure? If it is a bright dog not too many ;D Voice response plays into this deal. You have one set or two sets on a location you catch one coyote the other looks on and listens to the sounds coyote one is making, sees the set up and maybe smells the odor, that over time will lead up to avoidance. Some coyote familys will vacate an area due to these sites and sounds, more so in spring/summer, but you have a pair working an area say a 2 track, you catch a pup or two, ma and pa isn't going to let the others play there for awhile if anytime again. I have seen it happen. They will move there travel route through that area to somewheres else. Catch pa and the rest will avoid that area, it happens, and it's not that they reason and think oh s**t ma got caught in a trap there it's the sound and sites associated with that specific location, along with the smells. It's a total package and they just reconzie the danger from sounds being made, not that they can tell why or what ,just to avoid the area. I'm not stating they reason they can't it is just plain survival. Thats why you can call in a pair shoot one, the other hears the boom, yet make a puppie in distress and all's forgotten in a second most of the time and the other is running in hard to protect that pup, again if they could reason, you would very seldom shoot the pair, it's all survival instincts, the sounds and sites. No one can state there catch rate is 100%, and every coyote that gets pinched is one further that avoids certain sites,sounds and smells. Loose 3-5 coyotes over a year, add that times ten years and you will end up with avoidance of sets and lures. I don't think it is a stretch at all.
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 9, 2004 15:22:10 GMT -6
I once had 3 free roaming pet coyotes that stayed 2 years before we had to get rid of them for obvious reasons. Periodically I would watch one or another in both the snares and steel traps I keep set on the farm. Of course they would start carrying on like they were being pitch forked to death. In every case, no matter which one was caught , all the others would run over like mad and visciously attack the trapped one. I had 2 free roaming dogs also that ran with these coyotes , same deal, no matter who got caught, and there was an obvious pecking order in the 5 ,that went out the window if one got caught. Now, going further, I have many many times in say august or september caught out a whole family (2-3 adults and 4-6 pups) in 4 traps in close gang setting in 3 nights. This has been in wyoming sheep country, and in kansas and indiana cattle country. True, nobody gets them all, they will just leave after about the third night if you did not get the remaining ones. But they always eventually return and act dumb again for another night or two, maybe dumb only one night on a 30 day third return. So I make all effort to clean house but good the first time around, and generally do just that.
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Post by k9 on Sept 9, 2004 18:04:34 GMT -6
I would agree that no one get's 100% of them. People have been trying for years.
So do coyotes "learn" to avoid certain methods and types of equipment, or do some ocyotes just "naturally avoid" certain situations while others do not.
Kind of like my aloof Airedale. She is just flat out careful about anything that she does, unless game flushes. She came by it naturally.
You guys were discussing the history of poisons and drop baits. The general theory is that these were very effective and killed many coyotes, but that a few got weaker baits, and survived after getting sick. The theory is that this negative experience caused avoidance and refusals, and made for a coyote that had to be taken with other methods.
That is an interesting theory that looks very good on paper. Consider this. How do we know that coyotes got sick from weak baits? Did someone see one eat an old bait then start throwing up?
I don't think so. I think that some coyotes just were not working the baits, and someone started looking for reasons why. This theory sounds reasonable, and may have been the reason presented for this phenomenon. Once it becomes the accepted explanation people stop thinking about such problems and exploring them further.
I will say it again, most of those guys killed more coyotes than I will in my lifetime. However let's consider the fact that maybe those coyotes just had a natural reluctance for certain situations, without ever having a negative experience with drop baits.
We trappers always look for reasons why something is not working for us. We cuss the lure, we cuss the trap, human scent, etc etc etc, when the truth of the matter is sometimes coyotes are just being coyotes.
I live in Iowa. We are mandated by law to only use 8 inch loops on snares. You will see refusals on trail situations with that small of a loop, but will see few refusals in fence crawl unders.
Does a coyote see that snare loop in front of his face and back off, thinking "omygod there is a snare!" Doubtful. I think that the coyote is not mentally prepared to be "crowded" or "confined" walking down a trail, or in a large open draw. However I think a coyote that commits to ducking under a fence or log, has already mentally committed to being crowded or confined, and books right into the snare.
However with this thoery of mine, I am just as guilty as others of using theory, because I sure do not know what the coyote is thinking.
Your thoughts?
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 9, 2004 18:30:13 GMT -6
I think you are all giving coyotes too much credit, they are dumb animals way down on i.q. from humans. Poison litterally exterminated coyotes over vast areas of hundreds of miles, TOTAL extermination, 100%. The reason there are always coyotes is their great ability to re-stock areas that are empty ,from even many hundreds of miles away. Arial gunning can do near the same in open flat range and good snow. A competant trapper can do the same. There are no great numbers of coyotes refusing anything. There are bad breaks with weather, dang frigging sheep, physical limitations on time and miles, everything to do with everything except a coyote. They are frigging ignorant animals, can`t read or write or send a coyote to the moon. As long as you guys continue to follow the old wives tails spread by western trapper(s) to make themselves look like big poop, then you will always be poor coyote trappers. I`d hate to think even a single coyote was smartewr than me, let alone lots of them. MIGRATION,MIGRATION,MIGRATION- that is why they aren`t extinct, the only reason why.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 9, 2004 19:56:19 GMT -6
As far as coyotes getting sick but yet not dying, it has and can happen. On snow there are cases of bad pull's and caked cyanide in m-44's where the oberservation proved a coyotes tracks and vomit. So yes that area has and can be proved. Bob I'm not stating a coyote is on the same plane as humans in the thinking/intelligance dept, but just as dogs learn through repitition coyotes can too. You break a dog off running "trash" a coon hunting term through repitition, a dog doesn't know that by running a deer I'm going to get zapped, by the shock collar, he assoiciates that smell with a negative reaction, you litter train a dog the same way. No you can have a talk with a dog about peeing on the carpet, you must train him to do that. You can through genetics make a better hunting breed of dog. You must agree on that! I feel and some research shows that coyotes have that ability too, it is all repeated behavior. Tell me if you coyote call an area week after week, with the dying rabbit blues he is still going to respond time and time again? With out hesistation? No would be my answer and proof to back it up. It's not that he thinks rabbit sounds equal danger, but combine that area with that same sound week in and week out and bullet blasting, after awhile because of this repeated performance and a negative impact, soon he will adjust and just pay no attention to that sound in that area. Change it up and you can bring him in. It's all repeated behavior, not high logic or thinking. How does a coyote know where to hunt? Why does he go back time and again to the same places same trails? Repeated behavior with a positive or even neutral outcome, make either a negative and he will go elsewhere. I'm not saying one pinched coyote remembers to the day he dies, but each repeated behavior with a negative outcome tells them to search out area of better opportunity. How do monster whitetails become monsters? Are they just lucky? I would say no, through repeated behaviors and negative outcomes, he will go nocturnal switch areas etc. Could someone tell me why a coyote, deer, or fox or any other wild animal takes off at the smell of human. Are they dumb and just do it because? I would say through repeated behavior over a course of time, there is no positive to be had by that smell or neutral for that matter. Now take that deer and put him in a surburban development and over time through a positive like people feeding said deer he becomes accustomed to the smell of humans as a food source, as well as the sound of the tractor bailing hay. Again all repeated behavior that ended with a positive food. Shoot at that deer as he come into feed at the hay bales in the yard and see over a period of time if feeding behaviors and distance of time spent in that area stays the same or changes. High IQ? No just repeated behaviors.
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Post by jsevering on Sept 9, 2004 20:01:03 GMT -6
in regard to the pecking order mentioned going out the window, when one of the group was captured and vocalized its stress, do you feel that other sences like olfactory signals of that expressed stress, produced by glands, played apart in the break down of the pecking order?
Do you feel that the volitility in the remaining olfactory secreations of the victim play any part in circle shyness, in the remaining coyotes, of that particular group once the pecking order is reestablished?
On a shuffle yote say within three days of the incedent? ...jim
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Post by k9 on Sept 9, 2004 20:05:23 GMT -6
I agree Bob. No coyote is smarter than me or you. I give them no credit for having super powers.
However, the point I am trying to make is that there are those who credit the fact that certain methpds do not work on certain coyotes, and blame habituation, set shyness, etc etc on avoidance that they see happening near thier sets.
For all I know, maybe a rabbit flushed nearby and pulled the coyote from the set. However trappers always tend to blame the set, etc.
It does seem to me that coyotes may not fall prey to certain methods due to time of year, coyotes just not hungry, or the set or method just has no appeal to that coyote for what ever reason, but will easily take the next one down the road.
Some coyotes are aggressive, some submissive, etc. Perhaps the submissive ones survive certain methods just due to thier behavior. However they all got to eat, so even if they survive one method they are vulnerable to others.
Not that they are smart, they just behave a certain way and get credited for being smart.
I have seen coyotes go around a well blended trail snare, with our 8 inch loops. I have seen this on several occasions in snow. I feel the coyote just didn't want to crowd through there, not that he saw the loop as some sort of threat.
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Post by k9 on Sept 9, 2004 20:14:58 GMT -6
I just re read your post Bob, and I would agree that a coyote certainly will load up and migrate, with such good hunting grounds left unattended.
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 9, 2004 20:21:45 GMT -6
canine and 35, no doubt coyotes can and will do all the things you describe, but the % is miniscule, raising to small if a bunch of greenhorns muck up the situation. I maintain the primary reason by far for the coyotes continued success in the u.s. is migration in and not learned avoidance. I could take you to areas of sheep country and turn you loose on say 500,000 acres and guarantee you could noty come up with a track or turd fresher than 6 months. So how did that happen?, I`ll tell you, common sense coyote control by trained diligent humans with unlimited access.
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