|
Post by trappnman on Sept 4, 2004 7:41:04 GMT -6
In talking about canine lures- there are 2 schools of thought: 1) Use the same lures (lures) all year, year after year. 2) Use different lures depending on season and/or 3) switch brands of lure every couple of years Heres how I think on this- a good lure is a good lure. I believe that any lure is nothing but a curiosity lure- that gland lures might contain glands- but it ain't like Uncle Charlie was just here to a coyote- its just another curiosity lure. I think a good lure works all season. For example, I use a loud skunky lure as one of my lures- formulated for below zero weather- and it is an excellent fall/winter lure. but-the same lure works the SAME if not better in those 90-100 days of summer. Same quantities of course- you know I'm not a 2 drop lure man LOL. I never saw any indication that a lure was too strong or put off coyotes. As far as a change up after a season or 2- I can't see the need- for 2 reasons 1) 60% at least of the coyotes you catch- will be pups- they never had any contact with your lure. 2) On my collared coyotes- I caught 4 the next season- on the same lures on the same farms. And you would think that being caught, collared, poked and prodded would be about as tramactic an experience as they could get. My wife says- "why do you coyote guys argue all the time about little things?" I said simple- we agree 90% ofthe time- all we got left are the little things! So- lets hear some good theroys on lures....
|
|
|
Post by Gibb on Sept 4, 2004 7:51:02 GMT -6
A good lure is a good lure. When you change lure it makes you pay more attention to details so it can up your production for awhile. We are all guilty of becoming complacence, kind of like we are there but just going thought the numbers, not paying close attention to the finer details. I find changing something up during the season helps you focus better. Cheers Jim
|
|
|
Post by BK on Sept 4, 2004 9:32:23 GMT -6
During the fur boom there were lots of aspiring fox trappers here that had lots of sprung traps, and fox pulling out. Most of them were using Hawbaker's lures, I always felt I did better with something different. especially later in the season.
|
|
TrapperHod
Tenderfoot...
member of NMTA, VTA, ATA, and NTA
Posts: 22
|
Post by TrapperHod on Sept 4, 2004 9:44:24 GMT -6
I use same lures preaty much year end and out .
had one lure was hot for along time that while it still catches its not the hot item it was. Dont know the reasoning whether something got changed in making or they just cooled on it a bit.
As for sprung traps sounds like lure done its job and had a contamination or poor bedding problem Just my 2 cents Hod
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 4, 2004 10:06:02 GMT -6
I use the same "lures" year, year in year out, everywhere. Never saw any avoidance isues and been on the same eastern farms 30 years, the same wyoming ranches 17 years and the same kansas ranches 8 years. summer, winter , spring fall, all year `round. And get this, only use pee and one bait (no lures at all) for coyotes. On red fox only pee and a very very concentrated homemade gland lure. Nothing else, ever. But going to use some of stefs this year , maybe continue, maybe not. My stuff is free, so even if stefs gives the same result I will likely stay with mine. Done that with a few other brands over the years (boughten AND gifted), but always went back to my same old same old. I have no doubt there are commercial lures every but as good as what I make, no issue there. I just like making the stuff and using my own, and have no intentions of ever marketing any. I gift some on occasion to dear friends.
|
|
|
Post by coydog on Sept 4, 2004 12:08:05 GMT -6
I guess Ive really stuck with the same lure, and or type that is. Kinda why sometimes I ask or wonder in certain scenarios if it would help or speed up a response to switch types Never really tried it (for a long time that is ) (will be trying some of Stef's also ;D)
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2004 13:04:57 GMT -6
I would say if you use the same lure year in and out in a given area you will have some burn out, research has proven through habituation that this can and will happen. To what degree is determined by size of area, coyote density, pressure applied to coyotes in a given area etc. They have found this out with m-44's and that that tool used too much as a main tool with the same lures, you get set avoidance, the same can happen with foot traps and same lure useage. All lures being curiosity is vage in my mind. They may make a coyote curious but what factors plays into the curiosity? I would say a good constructed gland lure not full of fillers ie: coyote dung etc, will tell a coyote something about another coyote and depending on time of year it will have more interest than others. Is this just curiosty or playing on a certain instinctual value of the coyote? Scent marking is done for a reason and coyotes who cross these marking areas gain more information than just a general curiosity from them. A good lure is a good lure but the make up of that lure and what it triggers in a coyote during a specific time of year can add more or less value to it's ability. Yes a lure with skunk as a carrier can/will catch coyotes year round, but is there another formulation given a specific time of year and geograhpy that will have a more even response? I say yes, I have some real good lures that work diffrently given the time of year, some during the fall get a nice digging reaction, that other times and just the nature of said coyote won't get the same or equal reaction, in the summer. By changing to a totally different content I'm back to a good digging reaction at the same time, if that is what I desire for say a dirthole set. I like to try new lures and try them at various times of year to see the overall general response to see if they remain constant or change. I have some that I use year in and year out, but I like to change it up and see what happens, the experimental process is fun. Also I think not all "good lures" rank the same through out the US, I do beleive some lures have a greater benefit in certain areas over another.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Sept 4, 2004 13:12:50 GMT -6
would say if you use the same lure year in and out in a given area you will have some burn out, research has proven through habituation that this can and will happen.
I don't believe this to be a fact- that is, that research bears this out- reading some of the studies at Logan would seem to indicate actually that the reverse is true.
What research are you quoting?
|
|
|
Post by blakcoyote on Sept 4, 2004 14:49:12 GMT -6
I use the same ol same ol year after year.They are good producers and occasionally I'll try a new lure to see if it stands out,some do and some dont.The ones that do I'll keep using until they prove otherwise.But I still have a few mainstays year after year that are just plain good.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2004 15:12:24 GMT -6
I am quoting research done on a year round basis not just for a few months out of a given year. One would be research done on novel stimuli, that shows that coyotes are more apt to be caught on the fringe of home range and outside of it more so than a core area. One reason is they know there home range very well and know disturbances inside of it. Fall/winter trappers are taking coyotes young of the year and during dispersal, that being said, you will have more curious coyotes because they are outside there home range. Also look at what ADC men of the past have said, and more importantly monitored. That the last few years of bait dropping the effects where going substancialy down because the coyotes were not eating the baits near as much as during the early to mid stages of that program. Habituation will lead to problems given year round pressure from one tool or the other. Thinking of your question for 6-8 weeks out of a given year probably not as likely to occur to an extent you would notice a differance. There is a chapter on this matter in coyotes predators and survivors as well.It states that as 1080 went on it would take 60-70% of the coyotes but that was the high end in a given area. Also prevention and control of wildlife damge states" for managing coyotes a variety of control methods must be available since no single method is effective in every situation. While they don't clearly state from habituation I interept that to be the case as to why you must use a varity of methods and tools. I guess the short answer to your topic would be 2 months out of the year probably not, but 9 months out of a year or more for sure.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Sept 4, 2004 15:21:37 GMT -6
Hey- I have trapped coyotes 11 months of the year- I'm quite the rube some PA'ers believe me to be.
I'll match my coyote numbers against any sane man- thus leaving marty, matt and Bob out...
I was looking for specific research showing the results you stated. As of now, your statement is simply an unsubstantiated theroy that coyotes get lure wise or burned out or whatever...
My experience and many others says this doesn't appear to be the case.....
Your belief is your belief- we all have our theroys- but theroys are theroys and if there is indeed a specific research paper devoted to this, I'd like to see it.
|
|
|
Post by blakcoyote on Sept 4, 2004 15:33:38 GMT -6
I've trapped a few summer coyote on damage complaints here maybe not as many as some on here but I use the same ol strong call lures I use during the fur season and get the same results,coyotes in traps.A good lure is hard to beat no matter what time of year.
|
|
|
Post by musher on Sept 4, 2004 17:58:20 GMT -6
Numerous times I have caught fox on my line on a particular lure. I pull my sets and a long time later I'll find where a new fox has moved in and dug up through lots of snow to get to the lure. This new fox now lives in the dead foxes territory and it knows the lure. Even though the fox has not been made wary, the curiousity/new advantage is gone. That's why I like to mix it up a little.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 4, 2004 18:25:34 GMT -6
the theory that a lure causes avoidance is based on two premises, #1 some coyotes that are caught escape from the trap, however ,and in the future avoid that smell, or #2 somehow a coyote has the grey matter to figure seeing a mate or cronys in a trap with a certain smell ,and translates that to that is a bad smell. #1 is easy, allow no escapes. #2 I don`t believe as I have had way way too many both red fox and coyotes 6 in a row in 6 traps all set 6-8 feet apart, in a row all in 24 hr cks. Makes a guy wonder what the second fox or coyote thinks seeing his buddy in a trap, then the 3rd seeing 2 and so on till the sixth one sees 5 in traps , all in sight, yet wades in and gets caught. These animals are ignorant, can`t read, can`t write, can`t reason , and can`t send a coyote (man) to the moon. I think too often we cover our own failures in cleanliness or technique by trying to make animals out to be way way smarter than they are, or somehow blaming our failures on the lure, or anything but ourselves. They are sometimes skairdy cats, but always dumb. Near anyone catching canines doubles quite regular, and if you all set 6 instead of 2 , you would just as easily get sextuplets commonly same as I do. I don`t just mean den trapping pups either. I have maybe 100 different pictures of 6 in a row, so many I no longer photograph such things. Was a big deal to begin with, now commonplace. So much for them getting smart to a certain lure. Never saw a man not look at a good looking dame just because his last ex good looking wife was a man beater. Ditto on the women in reverse. We are all victims of ourselves, same as a coyote is to a good lure.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 4, 2004 18:30:10 GMT -6
p.s., I just thought of the name for my fox video, "bob wendts FOXES TO THE MOON"
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2004 18:43:39 GMT -6
Not a theroy T'man it is truth. Ask any ADC man if you have a guy using m-44's,traps, calling etc. Hard year after year if one doesn't find coyotes more recepetive to other methods. You can not use the same tool and scent month in and month out without some burn out what ever you want to call it. How did 1080 usage become less effective then? Trapping some coyotes on and off through a 11 months is not the same as having those traps sitting day after day month after month in the same locals with the same scent. There are many top of the crop ADC coyote men that would disagree with your theroy . No differant than any other tool. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Use a plane too much in area year after year and watch coyotes switch up on you, they will hunt out cover and culverts at the faintest sound of a plane. It's fact and does happen. I have some places that have coyote calling contest each fall/winter, these are some of the most call squirrly coyotes they don't see/ smell the source of the sound from 400+ yards outside of denning time your hard pressed to get many to come any closer. Barkers that just sit and yap. Been thru the dying rabbit blues many times over, and want more confermation than just sound alone. Again where not talking setting out a few traps during the summer months. Day after day month after month, you will see a differance. You stated you caught around 100-125 I beleive during the summer months over 5 years thats 20 coyotes avg per 8 months Feb-Sept. Break that down further that would be 2.5 coyotes a month during your off fur time. I don't see that as hitting them hard during this period. Can you honestly go on your own non fur trapping time of 2.5 coyotes per month ea off season month and have that as a fair compairison? I wouldn't call that hitting them hard with the same sets and lures in the same locals as you do for your 2-3 month fur catching window? You can/ I can have our own theroy's but I'll tell you "most" good control men will tell you that it does happen, again compairing month after month useage, I won't disagree with a 2-4 month fur harvest having little impact. Many guys don't like using the same popular lure as the rest because of that fact, also alot of good control men have lures that will only be used on there m-44's and not trap sets, they don't want them spooked off the getters. What would the reason be? Bad experiance and habiuation is my firm beleif.
|
|
|
Post by buckeyehunter on Sept 4, 2004 19:16:07 GMT -6
Just for sake of discussion....I can logically follow that coyotes, fox, become victims of their own nature/curiosities. With that in mind, shouldn't trappers have more of an impact on local fur populations than they actually do? If the lure/urine/bait/visual effect at our set is positive and animal response is somewhat robotic (without choice or "dumb") shouldn't our sets collect fur every day and if left long enough wipe out local fur populations? Or should we assume that animals have preferences(not human like personalities as PETA would have us believe). If they have preferences then a change up of lures/baits might be beneficial.
|
|
|
Post by DaveLyons on Sept 4, 2004 21:19:49 GMT -6
Well what I know aout summer trapping is you need to be on top of the fox or coyote. There home range is very small. I received a call two weeks ago about a fox problem. Well the problem is isolated to one area on this place ( Pheasant Farm dog training ) Now I can not trap where this problem is but I have select location on this preserve. I have tried to teach the person that is ahead of this operation but so far nothing. So I am stuck with the raising pens which are covered with skunks and possums and some coon. I personally don't think these fox would be hard to catch if I could be on top of them. I would only use gland lure. And I use fox gland lure every year made by the same person. I have yet to see my fox catch effected by using only one gland lure. ( But I don't have many fox ) Now I have used the same bait year after year for the past 6 yrs. This will be the first year I change up on bait. Now I am not some big western trapper. But I will say trapping in the east. We have about ten times more trappers going after the same fox or coyotes the western guys have if this theory of lure shy or bait shy was true. Then why is it guys still make good catches in the east? Just a question. And a question I don't think most could answer. I am going to step out of my releam and just say what I think. If this lure shy is true whos fault is it. I will say the trappers. Now with that in mind. In the west how close is your nearest competors traps. ( 1-5 miles or is it 5-10 miles). So in the fall and winter what is the coyotes home range 5-10 miles??? So basicly those coyotes are seeing one guys traps and lures. Now in the east I have had competors traps within yards of my traps. Last year I was asked to trap a place that was already trapped by a person but all this person caught were toes. Yes those coyotes were tough but not uncatchable. Those coyotes smelled very thing know to man to use to catch coyotes. So what did I do I used a calf hip with just a touch of gland lure and a real trap. One thing that I have learned was these are animals and I am a human being. I am higher on the food chain. Bob Wendt has tried to drill this kind of concept into everyones head. I think it is really starting to sink in, in my head. Before I meet Bob online I use to think coyotes were invisable. But I learned I (The trapper ) was making it harder then it was to trap them. I don't know if this makes sense to any. But I tried. Dave
|
|
|
Post by BK on Sept 4, 2004 21:43:00 GMT -6
BobWendt where do you use the otter glands ? In the bait?
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Sept 5, 2004 5:13:32 GMT -6
look- you STATED IT AS A FACT- AS PROVEN RESEARCH-
EITHER SHOW ME- OR ADMIT IT DOESN'T EXIST.
Theroys are like rectal openings....
I really don't care WHO disagrees with my theroys- they remain viable theroys until FACT proves them otherwise.
And sorry- I see no facts in your posts concerning this, unless its the "fact" you want your theroy to be truie.
|
|