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Post by trappnman on Aug 16, 2004 9:49:15 GMT -6
With all this talk of pups verses adults- do you (would you) set any different knowing you were targeting one or the other? Not targeting perhaps- but knew that the coyote in the area was lets say a lone adult vs a bunch of pups.
Would you make different sets? Use different lures? Take extra procautions?
As an aside- what do you think messes with you more...pups or adults?
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Post by Timber on Aug 16, 2004 10:02:42 GMT -6
Depends on the season. In the fall before the pups reach sexual maturity I would use gland lure for the adults and food lure for the pups. After the mating season and dispersal begins you could use either for both pups and adults.
I like to try and take the adults first as it is much easier to take the adults and then the YOY or pups vs. catching a pup first and then trying to get the adults.
I only do this in fall and switch tactics after deer season and the dispersal it causes. I find many more adult/pup combos during the early season.
Tim
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Post by BK on Aug 16, 2004 10:07:54 GMT -6
For shure I would have enough sets at the location, if I felt there were pups to deal with.( I tripled one time) But in truth early in the season I can get goofed up trying to tell young coyote tracks from red fox tracks. I feel pups sucker for stuff out of the stomach of coyotes real well. Steve you think that was mange on the tail of yote in the pic.?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Aug 16, 2004 10:26:14 GMT -6
It looked like it to me- you should post those pics- pretty cool.
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Post by Planes & Poison on Aug 16, 2004 10:42:26 GMT -6
Wow trappnman, now that's a very multi-faceted question.
When I'm targetting family groups of coyotes, August through November, I don't use coyote urine or coyote gland lure. I use red fox urine and gland lure. Reason being younger coyotes can be (not always, but sometimes) skittish about approaching a set with coyote urine collected from adult coyotes and a strong gland odor.
I also think that these younger coyotes don't have nearly the interest in coyote odors as they do in something they can eat or play with. Which is why the majority of my sets at this time of year are staked hide sets, "Grab & Die" sets, staked bones, etc. Most of these with a call lure or curiosity lure and/or bait to excite these younger coyotes.
When I set up on a family group of coyotes, I tend to catch the old male first, followed by the pups, and then round out on the female if I'm set up well and have covered all the bases.
Sometimes after pounding out the dog, and then some pups, a skittish bitch will just up and leave, and take any remaining pups with her. If I've set heavily, covering travelways and "points of entry and exit," I can usually pick off any remaining pups, if not clean house.
This is the reason gang setting is so important on family groups, and I mean seriously gang setting. Let dad come down a canyon and get nabbed, then the mass hysteria that ensues as the family comes trailing in behind can put a whole lot more of the family in traps. And if I'm lucky, mom will get caught and the rest are cake.
In predator control, when targetting specific coyotes, it seems I often end up dealing with more mature coyotes, and often pairs. When I do get pups that are killing, they tend to trap easy if I have an area to set where I don't have to contend with livestock.
Several times I've located dens, killed the baby-sitter, and gassed the den, but the remaining older pair stays in the area, or are still in proximity to the livestock. Sometimes still killing livestock. When working coyotes like these I tend to use completely different sets for them. Mafia sets are a favorite, as well as well blended flats on locations I feel the coyote(s) will stall out on. In many cases this is a flat area on a ridge the coyotes are utilizing as a travelways to get to livestock. Where they stall out to survey the area, they can be susceptible to a flat set with droppings and gland lure. I think these sets cater more to things this age group of coyotes are most apt investigate. But I've seen them act indifferent to most every offering I've tried at one time or another, so anything's possible.
I tend to gravitate more towards fresh urine collected from a single coyote versus collection urine taken from numerous coyotes for situations like these. I feel it's more natural, whether or not the coyotes care? I'm not sure, but it can't hurt.
As far as what messes with me more, pups or adults, I'll have to say pups. Adults are often difficult simply in the fact that they sometimes don't want to work a set. They'll smell the urine and droppings from 10' downwind, and just won't come in and work the set.
Pups will usually work the set, but if they get too excited (especially when you have multiple coyotes coming into sets) they can be more apt to roll into a set, resulting in back hair in your trap. Or work the trap from the back, not because they know there's a trap, simply because they're being coyote pups.
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Post by vttrapper on Aug 16, 2004 12:24:11 GMT -6
mostly pups are messing withthe sets. I tend to pick up more adults on my trail sets and urine/gland sets. I have seen where a adult set of tracks smells the set several yards out and leaves like the Cur says. Thats why I always try to have a trail set or 2 near the baited sets. If no trail set is available then a urine/gland set.
frank
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Post by jsevering on Aug 16, 2004 18:25:51 GMT -6
With all this talk of pups verses adults- do you (would you) set any different knowing you were targeting one or the other? Not targeting perhaps- but knew that the coyote in the area was lets say a lone adult vs a bunch of pups.
yes
Would you make different sets? Use different lures? Take extra procautions?
yes,yes...... extra?, different yes.
As an aside- what do you think messes with you more...pups or adults?
late season survivers.......jim
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Post by trappnman on Aug 16, 2004 19:01:46 GMT -6
I do find pups to be more curious, more playful than adults, and it seems when I get one playing games, its usually a pup- or at least I seem to catch a pup next.
As far as adults/pups regarding sets- doesn't seem ot matter- that is, my normal sets take about the righht amount of adults compared to youngsters- right around that 30-40% ratio. I can't say I have found adults any harder to trap or indeed any more standoffish- I think that pup or adult, when its time to take that crazy step, they do.
In other words I think that a well made set- in a natural location with a natural presentation- be it hole or flat set- will take just about any coyote coming down the pike.
If I have a "special" coyote. it seems just being patient is as good a cure as anything.
Since I believe that lures, no matter what lures, are nothing but curiousity lures- I don't try to match lures and/or sets with animals.
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Post by mattjones298 on Aug 16, 2004 20:37:09 GMT -6
early in the season, when things are easy on the coyotes and i find alot of pup coyote tracks i feel i`m right on top of them. right where i need to be.
the only thing i do different is set more traps. i don`t change the way i lure or bait or where i put the trap in the trap bed. i just set more traps.
i don`t know about summertime pup trapping and never want to as i feel its wrong for a fur trapper to catch (any) fur in summer as there is a good chance a fur trapper might go to hell for it ;D
matt
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Post by Planes & Poison on Aug 16, 2004 20:57:47 GMT -6
"I believe that lures, no matter what lures, are nothing but curiousity lures- I don't try to match lures and/or sets with animals."
Interesting.
Do you not feel that a gland lure elicits a different reaction from a canine, than a lure that is predominately, say civet musk?
I can see what you mean, as far as all lures appealing on a base level of curiosity. Also, I believe no multi-ingredient lures are very natural, which may have been where the "can't catch coyotes up against a tall backing" myth came from. But I do think that certain lures will have more or less draw to certain coyotes at certain times.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 16, 2004 21:08:16 GMT -6
i don`t know about summertime pup trapping and never want to as i feel its wrong for a fur trapper to catch (any) fur in summer as there is a good chance a fur trapper might go to hell for it
LOL
A pure gland lure- that is fresh glands from a coyote, might have a different reaction- but I don't bleieve that any commercial lure fools a cooyte into thinking ole bob was just here.
Gland lure simply means to me- that glands were a large makeup of that lure- along with ??. Just 1 more think ot trip theri trigger.
Perhaps you are on right track with a lot of "can't work" sets in the past actually working quite well nowadays- high backings, etc. With 2-3 drops of urine or a tuff of anal haur- a single trigger setup if I ever saw one. Thats why I beleive in multui dimensional lures= I want triggers to be multiple- cause the longer hes there....
I'd have to agree with matt- if a lot of pups- set more traps.
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Post by Edge on Aug 16, 2004 21:18:31 GMT -6
**i don`t know about summertime pup trapping and never want to as i feel its wrong for a fur trapper to catch (any) fur in summer as there is a good chance a fur trapper might go to hell for it **
Just in case you're right;when is summer over........?
Edge
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Post by mattjones298 on Aug 16, 2004 21:29:02 GMT -6
when fall starts....yank...i gotta tell you everything? ;D ;D matt
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 17, 2004 17:28:23 GMT -6
Interesting post! The matter of dealing with pups versus adults and what gives each fits. I would say that fall/winter trapping your dealing with a bunch of coyotes under 2 years of age. These are coyotes that haven't been confronted with alot of things through there short lives. Some lures are curiosity lures and some to me are not. During summer my first choice for dealing with a livestock situation, is to confirm the killing, then do the scouting to find entry and exit points. I stop there and if I'm certain with travel direction I will call, and try to take the adult pair out that way first, quicker for me and ends killling quickly. If I'm successful at that then pup howling to locate the pups, depending on country, take the den if possible or set traps on fresh sign. I have some gland lure and urine thats is from younger coyotes, not what we call "boss dog urine" and find the pups easy trapping with this combination, as the smells are being associated with where ma and pa went or are. Adults if I can't get them to come to the call, I will set traps/snares in all exit and entry points, but I like natural sets and naturals smells at this time of year when dealing with older coyotes, ones who have been threw the trapping calling wringer in the past. No taint fresh bait and adult urine and gland lure, to tell them hay intruders are setting up in the area. Works well at this time of year, this is preying more so on natural instinct than curiosity.\ Fall you have dispersal and the maximum amount of coyotes to trap, and with all the "newbies" multi- ingreidant lures will do the job quite well, but spring till end of August I like natural baits and lures that attact there natural instinct of mating and pup rearing, which includes a big push for food once the pups are born. Draw stations in late summer are a great way to get travlers that have no real pattern, to come in and get there attention and putting the odds in your favor. They will hit big baits at this time of year as with pups in tow it makes for easy feeding, set traps heavy in the area of the draw station, and you can take those that just can't be pinpointed, because of poor tracking conditions and not answering the siren or howling. I will say pups give me the most fits when there learning to hunt in August and first of September, ma and pa teach them hunting techniques on the sheep and you can have big time killing going on for sure! Here today, gone 10 miles tomorrow with no set pattern.
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Post by vttrapper on Aug 17, 2004 18:11:22 GMT -6
jsevering,
I am happy catching pups and adults, it really does not matter to me which i catch. The deal is, i have a limited amount of time to trap so I use all the sets i can to take the most coyotes possible at the location. If I was in a preditor control situation, it could be a different story.
frank
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Post by trappnman on Aug 17, 2004 18:21:56 GMT -6
well- its not like I've taken hundreds of off season coyotes- but I have had a few sheep killers and calf killers I needed to take, plus the collaring. In the May-June- its all adults.
I can honestly say- IN MY COUNTRY here- that the that curiousity lures, gland lures, etc- all work about the same during al lseasons- whether i nthe spring ,summeer fall or winter. As my hero (said more seriously than facieously ) once said- "There ain't a coyote I can't catch"
I am not a believer in match a lure to a set/season.
Make a natural set- and the coyote is yours. I honestly don't find that 1 coyote hard to catch- I know where he will be- and if I know where he will be, i can catch him.
Now- a truly shy, spooked coyote isn't going to be taken in a trap- that coyote will avoid you and your sets-our collared yotes would take WIDE avoidances around sets. Sure- a good blind set would take him- but even then- a real spooked one will just leave the area. Thats why snares, calling, planes and M-44s are used.
I should (ride Sally, ride) say I believe true shy coyotes are as rare as hen's teeth- and those coyotes will move or avoid you. Same with diggers. Some folks have more "digger yotes" in a season than I have had in a lifetime.
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Post by blakcoyote on Aug 17, 2004 19:01:15 GMT -6
i don`t know about summertime pup trapping and never want to as i feel its wrong for a fur trapper to catch (any) fur in summer as there is a good chance a fur trapper might go to hell for it
Uh-Oh! ;D
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Post by DeepSleep on Aug 17, 2004 19:01:47 GMT -6
I use the same sets for adults and pups. I gang set and will make 1 set natural, usually a flat set . Don't rightly care if its a pup the land owners here hate yotes and thats my in for permission to trap their land. They "want all them damn things dead." Some even like me to stop by to show them the body count.
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Post by jsevering on Aug 17, 2004 21:06:36 GMT -6
Frank, Im happy with catching pups and adults, take them as they come also, october into deer season.
Dont really start changing up some of my ways until mid december through feburary
the older dogs seem to start forming a pattern with their traveling. certain type sets along with certain attractors and unnatural baits that produced good, go cold for me. (not completly dead, but cold)
might be related to the type travel pattern im talking about and the displacement of some, lesser unwelcome coyotes at this particular time,when territories are being established and or reestablished after rifle season into mating season, have a gut feeling, but no way to prove it, other than saying its a theory, that seems to work out for me. (not saying the same attractors dont or wont work for me, just not as well as others during this time period atleast for me)....jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 17, 2004 22:26:25 GMT -6
The trapper that summer traps go to hell for it? Are you serious Matt? In the east where there are few sheep, that may be a good thought, but were I live you would be skinned by some ranchers for such a comment ;D! Market lambs at 1.09 per lb 85.00-100.00 lambs and leave them for prime fur trapping! Sorry them coyotes aren't waiting for you to trap them until prime fur season, there killing to feed pups and teaching the young to hunt, you better be taking them out ASAP, or out west your names mud before you get home for a hot meal and a shower by some!
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