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Rust
May 8, 2004 6:48:12 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 6:48:12 GMT -6
I've learned the hard way that a rusting trap underground, is avoided by coyotes here. And I just don't mean 1 or 2- in droves!
The problem is of course compounded in rainy weather- and rainy weather in fact was when I really started noticing the problem.
I would find tracked up sets everywhere except over the trap (I am now talking traps that have taken multiple animals- coon, yotes, possums, etc).
Out of desperation, I started spraying over the whole pattern with a heavy spray of urine.
This cured the problem (for the most part).
I stopped spraying.
Problem returned.
I resumed spraying- problem went.
Stopped and started again-
The results were clear in my mind.
(By the way- fresh traps, sets did not have this problem)
Then I read in Hoofbeats that O'Gorman believes the same thing based on the same experimentation. As did Bill Nelson- as does Johhny THorpe.
Now keep in mind I am not talking RUSTY traps- man, the traps of certain coyote trappers spook me- but its dry rust.
Dry rust is for all practical purposes FINISHED rust- that is, the RUSTING process has stopped. We all know what this rust is- its what gives untreated traps that nice brown color.
But rusting is a chemical process- and as such it produces heat and releases gases.
FYI- the sceince behind commercial handwarmers (the ones that come in sealed bags) is iron oxide- the warmth comes from the heat released by the chemical reaction- the same reaction as rusting.
Some rust facts: The amount of water present also determines the color of rust, which may vary from black to yellow to orange brown. The formation of rust is a very complex process which is thought to begin with the oxidation of iron to ferrous (iron "+2") ions.
The formation of rust can occur at some distance away from the actual pitting or erosion of iron as illustrated below. This is possible because the electrons produced via the initial oxidation of iron can be conducted through the metal and the iron ions can diffuse through the water layer to another point on the metal surface where oxygen is available. This process results in an electrochemical cell in which iron serves as the anode, oxygen gas as the cathode, and the aqueous solution of ions serving as a "salt bridge".
Since these processes involve hydrogen ions or hydroxide ions, they will be affected by changes in pH.
If you have other ions like calcium or carbonate present, they make a variety of precipitates that mix in with the iron hydroxide precipitates to produce a crusty, gnarled coating which can slow corrosion under some circumstances by cutting the iron off from the acid, water, and air supply
In dry or desert country- rust is minimal or not present at all.
In compacted soils that reduce or eliminate oxygen- rust is reduced or eliminated.
In addition, many bacteria secrete acids as they grow (lactic acid, and others, e.g.). In the sense that acids accelerate the process of corrosion, microbes present on iron-containing surfaces could enhance the ability of material to rust.
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So- lots of variables in rust and rusting- I'm thinking that well drained, loam type soils, with animal bacteria on the traps- causes maximum rusting.
This might also explain why some have success with dips.
Comments?
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Rust
May 8, 2004 8:24:22 GMT -6
Post by thebeav2 on May 8, 2004 8:24:22 GMT -6
Hmmmmm could you repeat that.
Beav
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Rust
May 8, 2004 8:28:33 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 8:28:33 GMT -6
Sure....iron oxidizing (rusting) produces heat and gas as a byproduct of the oxidation process.
This chemical reaction changes and/or is accellerated by bacteria/acid soils, etc.
This smell/heat combo is noticible to coyotes- and they, at least in many areas, avoid the that portion of the pattern where the trap is buried.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 8:32:35 GMT -6
Post by Edge on May 8, 2004 8:32:35 GMT -6
One of the best yote men I have ever met said something that I consider at least archive worthy,if not actually plaque worthy. I cant print it here,but it had to do with using rusty traps.I tried to kidproof it,but most of the words are profane;pretty much just left prepositions.
Here to help,
Edge
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Rust
May 8, 2004 8:54:06 GMT -6
Post by Stef on May 8, 2004 8:54:06 GMT -6
That's why at remake after 2-3 days without a catch in wet weather, I removed all traps and put clean ones in remake trap beds.
If during that period I make a catch and the animal "sand blast" my trap again, I'll set it back.
Stef
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Rust
May 8, 2004 9:14:21 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 9:14:21 GMT -6
I'm convinced that doing as you say stef is a good idea-
in a remake- I'll be changing traps on the 3 day rule.
edge- PM me the story if nothing else....
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Rust
May 8, 2004 12:06:25 GMT -6
Post by Wackyquacker on May 8, 2004 12:06:25 GMT -6
So as I understand you: 3 Fe + O2 ------- Fe3O2 produces a "gas". The only gas I see in this balanced equation is molecular oxygen which is being converted to the solid iron oxide.
As far as heat being released well heat is energy which, in chemistry, is released with bonds being broken. In the above reaction we have bond formation.
The fourth most common element composing the crust of the earth is iron. It most commonly exists in nature in the form of iron oxide(Fe3O2 ). To produce iron, iron oxide is reduced (chemically the opposite of oxidized) most commonly in a blast furnace in the presence of the reducing agent carbon (in the form of coke).
If we add water to iron oxide (hydrate it) we make rust.
Iron mixed with carbon is an alloy ...carbon steel. The iron in carbon steel will oxidize. Oxidation will be accelerated in the presence of water and aqueous acidic solutions. However, the fundamental reaction is no more complex than the reaction shown above.
Microbial production of acids occur in nature as a result of microbial growth. Only certian bacteria under particular growth conditions produce acids. In all cases growth must occur, which in turn mandates the presence of a source of carbon, nitrogen, potasium, phosphorus and depending on the organisms in question various other elements and possibly chemically complex growth "factors". In addition to nutrient availability, bacterial growth rate is temperature dependant with relatively few organisms showing significant growth at temperatures below 15o centigrade.
Aside from anaerobic respiration ( most notably the production of sulfuric acid which in turn leachs iron from the soil and causes the streams from coal mines to turn orange) the vast majority of acidic microbial end products are organic molecules; lactic acid (the sour taste of sour cream and yogurt) is one such end product. In nature one organisms end product is the growth substrate of the next, ergo, for example, the carbon cycle. The point being that, in nature as fast as acids are formed they are most often consumed by the next guy. Most terrestrial microbial egosystems exist in a feast or famine flux with transient accumulations of end products.
Please note, in the above paragraphs I never said nor did I infere that a coyote can or cannot detect a concentrated accumulation of hydrated iron oxide. In fact, on the basis of reports by others, I suspect that such a repository in juxtaposition with olfactory and visual stimuli may very well be detected, identified and associated with danger based on prior "bad" experiences of the indiviual in question. Also, I would predict that moiisture, temperature and soil conditions will affect this outcome.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 14:07:13 GMT -6
Post by jsevering on May 8, 2004 14:07:13 GMT -6
Guess this been workin its way to the top for awhile, ;D
whether its gas, or heat thats produced a canines nose has to (should) pass over the bed first to reach the hole.
might as well ask, if the canine is wised up enough or not, to assoc. rust, why didnt he assoc. the same human scent with mixed urine and\or with unatural lure or bait...jim
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Rust
May 8, 2004 14:18:14 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 14:18:14 GMT -6
Hydrogen gas is also formed.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 14:47:44 GMT -6
Post by Wackyquacker on May 8, 2004 14:47:44 GMT -6
Nope no hydrogen in the equation and its balanced. Even if H2 was released it's atomic number is 1 which is below the threshold of predicted olfactory detection...not only is it oderless to humans its most likely odorless.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 14:53:01 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 14:53:01 GMT -6
Rusting occurs mainly when iron slowly combines with the oxygen from moist air. The overall reaction is represented by the equation: 4 Fe +3 O2 ---> 2 Fe2O3 iron(III) oxide; ferric oxide The rusting or corrosion of the metal can be broken down into a series of distinct stages. a) In the first stage Fe(s) is converted to Fe2+(aq) and the solution becomes basic. 2 Fe(s) + O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) ---> 2 Fe+2(aq) + 4 OH-1(aq) b) In the second stage the Fe2+(aq) ions undergo further reaction with oxygen from the air. 4 Fe2+(aq) + O2(g) + H2O(l)-->4 Fe3+(aq) + 4 OH-1(aq) c) As the Fe3+(aq) ions are formed they immediately react with the OH-1(aq) ions to produce insoluble Fe(OH)3(s) Fe3+(aq) + 3 OH-1(aq) --------> Fe(OH)3(s) d)Finally, on standing, the Fe(OH)3 eventually dehydrates to produce Fe2O3. 2 Fe(OH)3(s) ---> Fe2O3(s) + 3 H2O(g) Notice that both the O2(g) and H2O(l) are needed to cause the rusting of the iron. Rusting does not take place very quickly in regions where humidity is low. Not that I have more than a laymans understanding of equations that a couple of college courses gave me- but in short it means there are various stages of rust- all having different reactions. _________________________________________ Another way to say the same thing- Rusting of metals is a special case of metal oxidation. Iron will oxidize to form rust. Water will cause metals to rust; this reaction can be accelerated by adding salts. In the corrosion process, metals get oxidized. For example in mild steel (which is greater than 99% iron) the metal corrodes according to the following: These electrons are consumed by reacting with another substance (usually oxygen but it can be H+ in acids) in reduction as in In an acid solution, the reduction is These equations indicate that in order for metals to corrode (rust), two reactions occur; an oxidation that converts metal to metal ions and electrons and a second reaction which consumes those electrons by converting oxygen and water to hydroxide ions. In order for these reactions to occur, the electrons must be transported from the place where the metal dissolves to the place where the oxygen is consumed and an ionic current must also flow between the sites to complete the circuit. This ionic current flows more easily through water containing electrolytes (i.e., NaCl). This accounts for the rapid rusting of unprotected steel in a salty environment. _______________________________________ Rusting is essentially a process of oxidation in which iron combines with water and oxygen to form rust, the reddish-brown crust that forms on the surface of the iron. Rust, a chemical compound, is a hydrated ferric oxide Fe 2 O 3 ยท n H 2 O, where n is usually 1 1/2 . The chemical mechanism of rusting is not fully known, but is thought to involve oxidation of metallic iron to ferrous ion (Fe ++ ) and reaction of the ferrous ion with oxygen and water to form rust. The reaction is catalyzed by water, acids, and metals ________________________________________- WQ- I did note you did not say or even infer that coyotes couldn't detect odors from rust. But yet, if I understand what you posted-you say that the process of rusting and iron flakes should be undetectable by coyotes? And heat is still produced- in detectable amounts- who knows? I don't quite understand what you are saying.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 15:00:39 GMT -6
Post by Stef on May 8, 2004 15:00:39 GMT -6
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Rust
May 8, 2004 15:14:40 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 15:14:40 GMT -6
I'm not a chemist nor do I play one on TV- but its seems to me that H2 IS produced in the later stages of rusting- . I found on some study on chemical reactions this morning- that hydrogen gas is a byproduct of rust- I scan so many sites- and could be wrong- but remember reading before about hydrogen gas. Now- whether that gas can be smelled..... if it CAN be smelled- its acoyote that will smell it.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 19:29:07 GMT -6
Post by FivePointsJohn on May 8, 2004 19:29:07 GMT -6
OK that's all well and good but the question for me is. In my part of the country is small farms with old farm equipment, old fence, droped wrenches, nails and what have you. Alright, WHY will a K9 dig up a trap with some rust on it while all this other junk is scattered all around? Don't they realize how much money I save in finding my lost tools, pocket knives and the list goes on and on? John
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Rust
May 8, 2004 20:03:21 GMT -6
Post by Wackyquacker on May 8, 2004 20:03:21 GMT -6
Let's have a reality check...put a trap in a conatiner of water or wrap it in a moist towel and place it in a container. Call me when you collect hydrogen we'll make a million. Hell call me when you get any gas collected.
I wish you could explain just how you came to that conclusion from my post above.
As for hydrogen ions (H+) combining with electrons...want to tell me how, when and where this happens...in other words how to the electrons get transported to a specific hydrogen ion. Where are these electrons hanging out.
I suppose that in the situation that fivepoints mentions only traps rust nothing else that is lying around rusts or is rusting ergo the coyotes only dig up the traps. Or do coyotes, albeit with some prior conditioning, associate the bedded trap with lures, holes urine etc.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 20:07:44 GMT -6
Post by dj88ryr on May 8, 2004 20:07:44 GMT -6
Not taking sides here, but I know that the coyotes here will dig up a "rusting" trap. But I am no chemist and don't want to even consider what all those equations mean, if I have to do that it starts to become work and not much fun anymore for me. I just stick to what works.
Now as for the stuff that is buried....unless newly buried, it is not "rusting" anymore, it is RUSTED, and the process is already done.
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Rust
May 8, 2004 20:12:24 GMT -6
Post by Wackyquacker on May 8, 2004 20:12:24 GMT -6
So when you dig up that old rusty horseshoe and scrape the rust off its not there?
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Rust
May 8, 2004 20:58:02 GMT -6
Post by dj88ryr on May 8, 2004 20:58:02 GMT -6
Could you clarify that a little more WQ?
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Rust
May 8, 2004 21:01:17 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 21:01:17 GMT -6
I wish you could explain just how you came to that conclusion from my post aboveWhat conclusion is that? I don't see where I posted any conclusions in relation to your posts. I can't argue this anymore- there are the formulas- H2 is produced- You say thats wrong. The formulas say it is righht. So be it. BTW- Acids, bacteria- DO have an effect on the chemical reactions caused by rust- part of why the concensous is, among the researchers studing the subject- that all is not known concerning the chemical reactions of rust and rusting. A good key is the different colors of rust on iron- ranging from yellows, reds, oranges to green- all depending on the chemical makeup of the iron and/or the bacteria, acid around it. John- its really not as mysterious as WQ suggests- simply put, old iron, under the ground- has RUSTED- it most likely is in an advanced stage- producing different reactions (at least according to the stages of rust and rusting as evidenced by the formulas I posted) and possible smells than fresh rust or stage 1 rust. I have no doubt that ANY IRON freshly underground in similar circumstances will be avoided by the coyote- not just traps. What the coyotes are avoiding IS THE RUSTING process- the fresh, flaky rust caused by stage 1 rusting. Again- I don't care if it is hydrogen gas, I don't care if its heat, I don't care what it is. Question the reason is all part of the learning process- bottom line is this- Fresh rust smells. I can smell it. A coyote can smell it. (pause) Now let me repeat that: Fresh rust smells. I can smell it. A coyote can smell it. Whatever the rusting process does- it spooks coyotes. And a trap with rusting smells coming from it- combined with the "strange" appearance of a set- spooks coyotes. On my line. Here in Minnesota. And that WQ- is that
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Rust
May 8, 2004 21:26:05 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on May 8, 2004 21:26:05 GMT -6
WQ- forget all the formulas.
I say this: It is my belief, based on observations, that a rusting trap at a set situation spooks coyotes on a regular basis
What say you?
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