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Post by Edge on Mar 12, 2004 13:15:34 GMT -6
First off,this is a great thread. The "core/fringe"areas were explained to me using the olympic circles.....with the ovrlapping areas being where two family groups traveled the same area. My question is how you can make these areas a significant part of your trapline? In order to "find" these locations you would have to square foot the whole area(time)then carve out a line(time)that encompassed them;then eliminate the ones with seasonal access. I believe I trap some fringe arfeas;because I have locations that produce throughout the season,in multiples.How do I find these locations?By setting traps on what I consider to be good yote locations,making notes of what is caught when and how often,and then being sure to set that area the following year. In doing this,my line constructs itself,based on production.In theory,I could use the fringe area premis to catch more coyotes in less traps than I do,but I believe the mileage would kill me. Once I learned a bit of the territory that yotes like,and when they like to be there,I find it quite adequate to use topo maps,or aerial photgraphs to pick places to start looking,from there I set the new area and presto;back to line maintenance. As far as yotes "howling back"after 2 days,2 more days,and then a week;I dont know anything about Chris's area,but where I howl this will not happen;not even with pups. I have only been using an open reed call for a few years,but I believe the variety of the sounds you can make with it might be your best shot at *re*locating groups.
Edge
PS Dont take this to mean I dont like or believe research and its overall ability to enlighten trappers to animal behavior;I jsut see very limited practical application to the trapline.
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Post by CoonDuke on Mar 12, 2004 13:32:44 GMT -6
Man, you guys are scaring me. I know I'll have coyotes to contend with in the future and they way it sound my whole land trapping system will be no good.
Here it is...
1) Gain permission at a farm where I (or others) have seen fox. I also like to trap farms that are along my travels between other farms.
2) Drive in with my pickup truck.
3) Set traps at locations where fox are likely to travel and are close to my truck.
No looking for sign. I set on sign when there is snow on the ground but I don't in the fall.
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Post by Edge on Mar 12, 2004 13:41:51 GMT -6
ExplorerDuke,, Just because a certain method has worked for a couple hundred years is NO reason to use it.Geez. LMAO!!
Edge
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Post by Traveler on Mar 12, 2004 14:13:50 GMT -6
I think there has been to much hang up here on core vs fringe area.I set on location....period.If the location is good,a coyote will be there.Core fringe or whatever.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2004 15:04:51 GMT -6
I don't WORRY about them. All I am doing is giving my THEROY on WHY I believe certain locations out produce others over a longer period. Consistently- year after year. Giving a label to what I feel these good locations are is simply done for expediance sake. Call them "good locations" "kinda good locations" and "real good locations"- it doesn't matter what they are called. And WONDERING if one reason that these SPECIFIC areas produce BETTER than mere "good" areas- is that these areas might be (and use the results of the collared yotes or not- I will since they are on my line and I know the history of the locations) different types of locations than most of the ones I was setting up. One part of the equation was if coyotes approach and work a set differently in certain areas.. It seems quite clear that the locations that had the most collored yotes of any 2 locations- were also the 2 locations (caps for emhasis) WHERE THE COLLARED COYOTES SCATTERED- LOCATIONS WHERE THE COLLARED COYOTES DIDN'T NOT SPEND MUCH TIME. Think about that. In these 2 locations, locations that were my 2 best fur locations- NONE OF THE COYOTES WAS CALLING IT HOME. Yet on all the other locations- the locations where we caught and collared just a few coyotes- THESE COYOTES STAYED RIGHT ON THE CAPTURE SITE. In fact, this year caught 3 from the previous years- all on the original locations. So- Locations with limited coyotes, coyotes stayed put. Locations with lots of coyotes- coyotes scattered. So you are right on Edge- the only thing that makes sense- remember I have some radio movement history I factored in- was that the territories of the coyotes- in my little corner of the world at the absolute very least- had ranges that yes, are like the Olympics rings. When I went into the individual rings or the core territorys (just easier to say than "good areas where the coyote spends most of his time and holds somewhat if not wholly exclusively vis-a-vis other coyotes" ) - the coyotes were few in numbers (makes sense) and they stayed local (and that also makes sense). At what appeared to be the juncture of the rings- there seemed to be more coyotes that disappeared to many directions when released. For lack of a better term- I thought of these as social areas or neutral areas. Now- if all your locations produce the same numbers of coyotes, then this info wouldn't be relevant. But if a few of your locations are vastly better than others- that means more coyotes taken, and that probably means a few family groups over a longer season- and it would be tough to come to the conclusion, again with my coyotes here in MN- that these areas are home territories. If not home territories- then whats left? not home- fringe, edge, whatever. I ain't a rocket scintist- not do I play one on TV- but even I could see that the two locations had many features in common- that they were similar in many ways. I have found several more what seem to be like locations- but of course I still set up my "good" and "kinda good" locations. But if I am checking a trap for 4-6 weeks- I'd just as soon be taking coyotes out of it. And as part of a effort to understand and try to duplicate these locations- I already have done the drive to a bunch of farms and set up route and it served its purpose for the time, I was wondering about behavorial factors being part of the equation- THUS....my original question- do you (the generic you) think coyotes are easier- define easier as more willing to work a set, less spooky, inhibitions lowered- to catch in some locations over others. Or not. Now- and I know you won't take this the wrong way Chris (for those wondering, Chris and I are good friends and I love him like an older uncle...Think of ole Uncle Joe from Hooterville)- are you telling me you catch every coyote in every area you trap? That is- doesn't matter where in his territory you are- if hes around- hes yours? Now we are talking specifics- 1 coyote- last one in the area- you are going to keep your traps in that "good" location? Cause hes still passing through regular, so its still a "good" location. Move them 20, 30 feet- whatever-but same area. Or are you going to move your traps to a new part of his range and try for him there? In an area where his reactions, etc might be different? ___________________________________________ Trapping ain't rocket science- but since I learn more every year- theres definitely a learning curve. I strive to trap smarter every year- and part of that "smartness" is less traps for more coyotes. If I can eliminate those "good" locations- not only the 1 coyote locations but the 2-3 coyote locations....more set up can be done on the better producing areas. Great you said- we all want that. Well, if we do...then we figure out ways to accomplish this. And research is a valuable tool to doing just that.
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Post by Traveler on Mar 12, 2004 15:30:39 GMT -6
Steve,I think these REALY hot locations are what Bill Nelson termed "port" of entry or "port" of exit locations.The long ridge that travels for miles,then tapers into a drainage location.Or anything that connects country.The reason I think they're the "hot" location is because travelers as well as core coyotes will hit them.I compare them to highways.4-lane interstate or two lane black top.Then you've got those gravel road locations.They get some traffic,but not much.I believe these locations are within the core area of the local coyotes.However,I do believe the "port" of entry or "exit" will be hit by both the home coyotes and the travelers alike.Now the big problem......always being able to pick out the entry and exit points. ;D
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2004 15:45:55 GMT -6
That makes sense also- I have thought of that- kinda like "its in the middle of nowhere- but on the way to everywhere"
My #1 location is like that- A section of field road, that actually was part of an old roadway- and it streches for many miles in 2 directions. Lots of good habitat going out in several directions- but all distant.
They certainly travel through- but the farmers hear them all the time throughout th year from this location- so they are passinf through- but hanging out for a while.
Ah well, interesting to me anyhoo...
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Post by Edge on Mar 12, 2004 16:21:34 GMT -6
All information is interesting....just not to all people,LOL! After I sold my shop(tangent here,beware)i started looking at replacing and upgrading some gear. About the same time a trapper in my area is on the horn to me about his yote catch;or,more specifically,lack thereof. He sets the same 70 or 80 traps IN THE SAME PLACE veery year........and then asks me why hes catchijg a couple dozen yotes. Dude,because your locations suck.Granted he aint hard at em all year,but geez man,ya plant corn,ya get corn. For where he traps,a couple dozen yotes in a couple weeks aint bad,but it could be done in a week with 20 traps.But he will not listen to this....he thinks some magic lure or technique is gonna all of a sudden "create"yotes...frustrating. At any rate,it was at that time I started going thru my notes on areas,new and old,and started realizing that my days of 200 plus traps out may be over.Nearly all my locations are prime,some better than others,but all good;and as a result,I dont think I'll be re-tooling to the degree I was thinking...so,yes,Tman,fewr traps,more yotes. This does not,however,apply to snares.I will continue to hang as many snares as I have locations for;fur is better and I have more time to skin.
Edge
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 12, 2004 21:21:14 GMT -6
are you telling me you catch every coyote in every area you trap? That is- doesn't matter where in his territory you are- if hes around- hes yours?
NOW you're catchin on! It don't matter where he is or what his mood. If he's there I can and will catch him. Not only him but every other coyote that walks, crawls or flys! If I want him its just a matter of time a fore I clamp the ol steel braclet on him! When I get through poundin an area its a regular coyote waste land! I'm told it reminds the old timers of the 1080 days! ;D
Seriously, if I have one avoiding sets at a particular location I may use a different set, or technique or perhaps another location, but if hes "coming through here" I dont see any reason to move to a new part of his range.
Steve, I'm not disputing or making light of your theory. You may be absolutly correct. I just dont worry about it. Though there are exceptions, most of the time I really dont know or care if its in this core area or not. I read the sign and set locations.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 13, 2004 9:20:58 GMT -6
NOW you're catchin on! It don't matter where he is or what his mood. If he's there I can and will catch him. Not only him but every other coyote that walks, crawls or flys! If I want him its just a matter of time a fore I clamp the ol steel braclet on him! When I get through poundin an area its a regular coyote waste land! I'm told it reminds the old timers of the 1080 days! Chris- I just can't let this bone go- I know what you are saying and I agree with it...but let me try once more to explain WHY it is important TO ME. I am going io specualte and assume that your typical coyote complaint comes simlar to the few I get. Farmer calls, he has calves, sheep, whatever being killed- why aren't you already there? You go out to the area- read the sign- set up if thats the option, whatever. The coyote is there and you are right on top of him. Yes- I agree- who cares what the location is- yo ujust pick the best set locations, put in a few sets andf on your way. With limited experience, I don't find anything too difficult in catching these coyotes- as you say- since he is there regular- you will get him. ______________________________________ Fur is different- heck- you trap for fur more years than you haven't- I know that. But think about it. I trap the same 2 counties year after year. Have for the past 20 years and will another 20, God willing. My goal is to catch the most coyotes I can in the time I have allotted to trap them -6 weeks. I only have so much time so much effort to give- so many hours in the day. A few years ago, I got my personal best in coyotes- and I did that by CoonDukes method- drove into farms and set traps. And it worked. I got a lot of coyotes- in fact my personal best over a 72 hour period (3 checks)was 21 coyotes. I left after the kid went to school and got home at dark. A quick break- and out to the shed. Trapping by brute strength. But when you trap something all year- brute strength looses its appeal, and a guy wants to get smarter. So on coyotes- I needed to get smarter. I wanted to catch the same amount of coyotes in half the time and with half the effort. Which meant less stops and less traps. Stop setting traps at those 1 coyote locations- try find more multiple locations. So- I started thinking- long before the radio program- what made these "good" locations "good"- and what made a couple locations outstanding? More importantly- I wasn't running out of cooytes at these 2 locations. I had traps at them the full 6 weeks and the locations produced fairly consistently over the 6 week pweeriods. Most other location take 1-5 coyotes and dry up over the same time period. So- you either need to keep moving or have dry spells. Wouldn't it be nice to have 20 location just like them- instead of 2? It wasn't just terrian, it wasn't just travel routes- heck, most of my locations have similar features and habitat. Since 99% of my locations are small family dairy farms in hill country going to river bottoms- its easy to see that just about any farm had the habitat to qualify as a good location- and yes- I caught a least A coyote on just about every farm. So what DID make some of these better? I really didn't know- so factor in the behavior of cooytes radioed and released- and the light bulb went off- NOW I KNEW what these 2 "SUPER" areas were- and WHY the were different. And knowing WHY is the first step to duplicating. thats it..I rest my case
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 13, 2004 9:36:30 GMT -6
I think this may be the difference between us, part time trappers and you professionals, we trap WHERE we can, and must make optimum use of those areas, and that may mean, setting up some locations that only take 1 or 2 animals. I trapped hard the first two weeks, and took half of my years total, the rest of the season, I had to be content to set where I could still go to work, and still have some traps to check, I took 4 times as long, to catch the same numbers, but at least I was still having something to look forward to every day. Smart a$$ female fox excluded.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 13, 2004 9:49:20 GMT -6
The biggest difference between a professional trapper and a good parttime trapper is time-
Nothing wrong with 1-2 coyotes per location- but as someone said about coon- "the hardest thing to do as a coon trapper is to drive by those 1-2 coon locations"
I look at it purely $$$ wise- if it costs me more to drive to and check a location than I get out of it in fur- I cannot afford to do so. It is on my way- yes.
Every year I eliminate locations and hopefully add better ones.
Actually- this past year I added several very nice locations- a few that fit the criteria of portal entry areas or social areas, etc- I pretty happy with the layout of my line now. I have been finetuning it over the past years- adding a loop, eliminating a loop. And I have been waiting for this for years- now that the route is established between enough "good" locations- now I can go inbetween and connect the dots a little bit.
for coyotes, I like a group of locations....then down the road to another group of locations. In looking for these new "inbetween" locations- I want to set up as few of the 1-2 coyote locations as I can- and try to find the best possible locations- the area where many coyote familys territorys come together.
"...where everybody knows your name..."
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Post by Cliffy on Mar 13, 2004 9:58:40 GMT -6
DJ88RYR I think you nailed it, for me at least. What I got is what I got LOL. I don't take vacation and still work a forty hour week. Check early, skin late, sleep less LOL. After I set, and other than moving sets 30 to 40 yards to cover new found traveling areas, the sets don't come out of those locations til the end of season. The sets must be checked quick, walking in or going far away to new farm means some farms get pulled to make up for time. When I come back a week or so later to same farms sets go in same areas. I am interested in these topics because on some farms I have been able to decrease the amount of sets, thus less time, while increaseing or staying the same on number of catches this is knowledge at its best. Other farms baffle me and leave me cornfused Learning more can only help but I must be very careful. I asked my dad why he sent my sister to college and wouldn't pay for mine. He said that in the wrong hands knowledge is a dangerous think, and besides, the world needs ditch digger too Cliffy
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Post by bubcat on Mar 14, 2004 20:31:12 GMT -6
Trappnman; You got a real coyote think tank going with this site. Glad you put it up.
Getting all the input from across the country, I see alot of subtle diversity with the coyotes.
Many of you talk of the travelways between locations. Breaks in the terrain seem to be rules rather than exceptions.
Where I live, we are predominantly heavily forested, interspersed with lowlands, beaver ponds, and small overgrown fields. Very few active farms. Little open land. Plenty of cover.
Coyotes tend to use old logging roads for travel, But also seem to work within the bounds of a defined territory. The territories seem to be divided by roads, ridges, valleys, and water. With the seasons, they will work different areas of their established territories. The only "core" area I notice is during denning, and the only inter territorial travelling I see to any extent is during late winter breeding, which is also the height of any dispersal. (Family units stay pretty much intact through the fall.)
I don't have the vantage of radio tracking. But the snow provides a great deal of info. Observing where and when how many coyotes will cross a road, or skidoo track, and how far they tend to go helps me define the extent of territories, and how many coyotes each contain. In general, that's about the way it works here.
If tracks, scrapes, droppings, or better yet, coyotes, are seen in an area on a near daily basis, This Is where I'd lay steel, sooner than the trail where I see tracks every 3 days or so.
I can now understand why so many elect to set up on trails, but here, most trails don't seemed to be shared by a multitude of family units. Just byways within the same territory.
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 14, 2004 20:36:50 GMT -6
Great explanation Bubcat, I have had a hard time relating just how different NH is to anywhere else I have been, but you pretty much nailed it. Trying to get yourself mentally out of that frame of mind to trap here is one of the toughest things I have had to overcome, still ain't there 100% AYUH!!!
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Post by trappnman on Mar 14, 2004 20:44:20 GMT -6
Northern MN and WS, the UP- are similar to that. I often wonder how I would set up those locations. I don't think I'd want to LOL
It is a whole new ballgame. A lot most likly hasd to do with territorial size- in farmland, smaller is the norm. I'll see what I can dig up tomorrow on sizes.
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Post by Edge on Mar 14, 2004 21:20:50 GMT -6
This brings up the point I made about a year ago....trust me;I did,that a good yote trapper can go anywhere and catch yotes,but the regional sudblties,and knowing them will make the diffrence between a good catch and a great cathc. TMan says he dont wanna trap the bush(he'd do fine)*I* dont wanna trap farmland............it just seems harder to pick locations when you can see everything. Traveling to Bloomington last year I drove past all the treeless cropland wonderinghow many hundreds of traps it would take me to find consistant producers......... lots.
Edge
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Post by chessiepup on Mar 14, 2004 21:25:59 GMT -6
Traveling to Bloomington last year I drove past all the treeless cropland wonderinghow many hundreds of traps it would take me to find consistant producers......... lots. Edge funny I feel the same way in the opposite direction It easier for me to pick spots here in mid michigan farmland than it is in northern michigan woodland/forests I think because I "know" where they wont be?
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Post by bubcat on Mar 14, 2004 21:30:06 GMT -6
From what I see In my little corner of the ecosystem, without hiring a surveyor, I'd guess about 4 sq miles per family unit.
Ideally each territory seems to contain A beaver pond or two, a winter deer yard. a few decent cut overs, and some measure of open field. With a mixed bag of open hardwood, and predominantly dense softwood growth, pines, spruce, hemlock.
The size of the territory seems to fluctuate on how much area it requires to contain these features. It might take in 6 sq miles or more. But mostly, you can find this combination of terrain features in 4.
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 14, 2004 21:35:34 GMT -6
Bubcat, I have been trying to get folks here interested in improving habitat for beaver. You mentioned beaver ponds in your post. There aren't any in this area, zero. That was always a starting point for fur exploration up home, find a beaver bog, and start from there, usually you didn't have to go far, I used to take every legal specie, in and around the beaver swamps, they were fur magnets. Ayyy??
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