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Post by kevinupp on Mar 11, 2004 9:59:46 GMT -6
IMHO, I think the determining factor is what the coyote needs are at the time. I think the reason he has left his core area would be a determining factor in whether or not he is easier to catch out of it. Lack of food vs. just a general dispersal.
If he leaves his core area because of a lack of food, he should be easier to catch because that (if you are using bait) is what he is in search of.
Now if he is leaving because of dispersal ie young leaving to establish an area, he may not need the food. Dispersal may also make it easier to catch him by using urine because he is trying to establish a territory of his own and will want to put his own marking over anothers.
Oh hell I don't know.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 11, 2004 11:15:17 GMT -6
Dispersal itself is one thing- but i'm talking more about coyotes that have territory.
From what I understand, coyotes claim a certain amount of area. Consider the territory as an area- and the core area a smaller area within the greater territory.
Good habitat and high populations usually mean smaller territories-
Poor habitat usually means much larger territories
In either case, parts of those territories will be visited less frequently and get less use than the core area.
_________________________________________
Dispersal puts coyotes in new areas- but in essense, fringe areas do about the same thing.
so... the same reasons that dispersal coyotes are considered easier to trap should apply to fringe territory coyotes.
Some say the dispersal canines are pups- and in places that get true dispersals, I can see that being true. Like the beaver- the young move on.
But in farmland, I don't see that we ever have a true dispersal. I think we have more of a blending and wiggling in. Dusty mentions some radioed coyotes that haven't had pups in 4 years- and all are alive. Down here- we show tenative population rollovers in a 2 year span. Lots of turnover- so the coyotes don't have to go far to find suitable areas to set up shop.
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 11, 2004 14:41:43 GMT -6
Interesting theories guys, but I have a few questions.
Exactly how do you know when you are in or near this "core" area?
How do you know when you're on the fringe area?
How do you know when you have entered another family groups area?
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 11, 2004 14:57:21 GMT -6
I noticed both Bubcat and I picked " core area " as the easiest place to catch them. NH Mentality??? Or are the differences in populations that different from say Minnifreakinsota to NH?
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Post by Bill Phillips on Mar 11, 2004 15:09:11 GMT -6
;D I think that it is location location location no matter what basics boys basics lol
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Post by Cliffy on Mar 11, 2004 15:30:23 GMT -6
Other than say denning, do they even have a "core area" when season rolls around ?
Talked with someone about radio collar tracking and basicly the yotes stayed in general area for 3 to 5 days after caught.
After that the sky was the limit.
She even found one that was thought lost, it was 50+ miles away and still truckin.
Was it a teenager? I don't have a clue and don't quote me on the numbers above. I'll see if I can get to the source and have him post it on here.
But I got the general idea (with my very limited coyote knowledge) that they are on the move during the fall and only stop if food is good in an area.
Do have some "Downtown" coyotes and they do have a "core area" but I think that is more due to lack of options rather that picking it as a home. It is simply the one spot that is thickest and farthest from human traffic in the woods they have.
I've never found a "core area" just lanes of travel and while yes there are certain things about the yotes that would make me think they are related, in most cases they are different as night and day caught days/weeks apart at same set locations.
Never finding a core area could be because I don't know what I'm looking for and wouldn't know it if I was setting at the entrance of the den LOL (funny but true).
Areas Iv'e seen are crawling with yotes one day and then none for weeks or more. My trapping area has a large human population so you would think their areas would be smaller but it doesn't seem so.
AND are the yotes that show up 3 weeks later the same or just another group hanging out for a few days before moving on?
Cliffy
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Post by trappnman on Mar 11, 2004 17:09:40 GMT -6
Exactly how do you know when you are in or near this "core" area?
I''m cheating- but I know the "core"areas of the ones collared- assuming that the core area is where they spend most of their time. In fact- lets define the core areas thusly_ "that area in which coyotes spend the majority of their time"
sub qualifying it by saying "this core area will/does change seasonally"
But I don't WANT to be in the core area. So I don't really care whewre it is- nor do I trap them- unless inadvertantly.
How do you know when you're on the fringe area?
I have found that in a couple of locations- locations where I collared the majority of my coyotes- that none stayed in the capture area- and there was no pattern to where they ended up. So- my conclusion was-based also on the type of location and where it was situated- that these coyotes were VISITING coyotes and not locals.
I made the leap that these couple locations were either FRINGE areas..or fringe/social areas. This is further reinforced by the fact that these two "social locations" produce the most coyotes per location year after year- in all seasons.
Most of my collared coyote locations showed the coyotes hanging out close to the capture site- core coyotes, I concluded.
Much of this accepts Cliffys reportings.
How do you know when you have entered another family groups area?
See above
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Post by Zagman on Mar 11, 2004 17:19:55 GMT -6
I trap early, and probably catch family groups that have not broken up. I dont think I catch many travelers.....I quit to early and start back up too late. Deer season is 23 days long here......
Every year is different and every farm is different. I dont doubt that coyotes den in the same "core" area year to year (or I guess a certain female might) but I certainly dont see any patterns.
Books say to find the place where territories overlap to really make some bang-up catches. Man, I can't find those spots.
I location trap, but try to set on sign. Often, when I find a pile of it, I am on a family group, and I guess, in a core area.
Maybe, if I find a lot of sign, I am on the edge of two territories? I dunno.
I need to trap longer, throughout the season, and get back to ya......
I know that O'G mentions in his book that coyotes outside their territories are more apt to investigate something new by a big %....I just cant remember the number.
I think it has been proven that canines will walk by a set, knowing it is there, several times in a given night.....maybe they get caught later that night or the next day.....
Steve, didn't your radio study show that?
As you drive around your town, look at the State Road signs and signs that say "Syracuse 10 miles". They are all over the place in your own backyard, but you dont notice them because you know where you are going. Really look....you will be surprised how many there are and where they are.....
But when you are traveling and dont know where you are going, they jump out atcha!
Make sense? I didn't think so....food for thought, though?
Zag
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Post by trappnman on Mar 11, 2004 18:53:34 GMT -6
I look at it like this- do you have locations that produce coyotes continually throughout the season? Throughout the year?
If so- I'd say there is a good chance those locations are fringe areas and overlapping territories.
I had 2 locations that produce all season, year after year. All I knew- they were good locations.
Then- when of course I set traps at these "good locations" to put collars on yotes- the patterns became apparent. In these 2 areas- coyotes seemed to be, based on subsquent radio studies- to be visitors, not residents. Non of the coyotes, and a majority of the captured yotes were from these 2 reas- stayed in these areas- yet most of the others caught off these 2 locations- did.
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Post by 17kiss on Mar 11, 2004 19:28:38 GMT -6
In my limited experience , best at fringes. Especially in areas of marking stations as I call them. The places where several different aged scat and aggressive kickbacks are common. I think that in general coyotes take less time to work areas such as these when setup properly. In their core area seems like it may take them several trips thru to properly work set.Also seems like a better place to connect with doubles. Just my .02
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Post by z on Mar 12, 2004 5:40:07 GMT -6
Why? The big ?........... ? for Chris, Why is the western more vocal then the Eastern? Easterns howl and carry on.....Just not when I want them to......Most of the time! In an area heavily populated with humans, Does one feel their is more communication through sight and smell rather then sound. If the areas are small enough, why open your yap? ?? many of the coyotes I kill are long legged sob's...... I feel if I can get coyotes to open their yaps more predictably I could get a grasp on these so called "areas"...... Core, Denning, Fringe etc! This information will tell me where the Coyotes like to "hang" at varying times of the season...... Heck, I need a lesson in coyote calling. BTW, Tell Scott I am still waiting for my howler......
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2004 7:17:56 GMT -6
Zags- I'd almost think that maybe (hows this for a WAG?) your quarrys might be fringe areas for coyotes.
The areas on my trapline that I consider neutral areas- or firnge areas- have several things in common.
1) they are marginal habitat. A few points of interest (weed clumps, dried up ponds, brush piles)
2) they all have at least 1 old road going towards and through them- plus alternate travel lanes.
3) they all have "high points"
4) they are "open" areas
5) they produce all season
____________________________________
I "know" of 2 of these areas simply becasue of the collaring (assuming my reasoning given previously is correct) and guess I might have 3-4 more such areas.
And if the above is true- then areas that have the opposite features might be labeled as home or core areas.
Z- you feel your coytes are less vocal? hmmn- that deserves a new thread.
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 12, 2004 7:37:15 GMT -6
Why is the western more vocal then the Eastern?
Z,
I've never called back east so dont know if thats true or not. I do know that its often difficult to get them to open their yaps out here too. Especially at certain times of the year.
Also a responce to your howl often dont tell ya much except where they are right now. If you are not in a position to go kill em right now]/b] (by calling or airplane for example) the info may not do you any good.
I have tried for weeks to get some coyotes to give up their location without any luck, untill the pups get big enough to be vocal. Ah them pups! love em! This job gets considerably easier after about July 1st.
Also, of the coyotes I call and shoot with a howler...well less than half ever answer before they come in.
Other than pups during denning season, getting a family group to answere doesnt tell ya much about their "core" area. It only tell ya where they happen to be right now.
On those nights when ya get the whole country to open up, it can be good for getting an idea how many groups you are working with and their general areas.
Back to the original question...... I think most all trappers just sit on locations and sign. They dont know or care if they are in a core or fringe area. Nor should they!
Since my coyotes dont have tracking collars on em, the only time I KNOW where the core area is, is during denning season. When I have located a den in a certain drainage or bunch of hills etc... And even then I can't tell you if they are harder or easier to trap there cause I dont. I just walk out there and shoot em!
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2004 8:28:40 GMT -6
They dont know or care if they are in a core or fringe area. Nor should they!Why would you not CARE? If you can take more coyotes easier in certain types of areas- wouldn't YOU want to know WHY? I do. The only reason NOT to care would be this: there is absolutely no difference in actions, reactions, temperment in a coyote in 1) his core area 2) the edges of his territory and 3) out of his territory. I do not believe that to be true- and research studies SHOW that not to be true. _________________________________________ I'm a little dissapointed in you Mr M- I give you much more credit that you give yourself. I think you could find out the core areas pretty easily if you have the desire to do so. After all, I can..... You said answering to a howl only shows you where those coyotes are AT THE MOMENT. How about if you try again in 2 days- in 2 days- in a week? And the coyotes answer from the same location? Or having the farmer show me where HE hears the coyotes every night. night after night. Or where the farmer tells me- I see a coyote down in_____ all the time. Wouldn't these be hints? And then- to have these observations and hinys backed up by radioed yotes. Hey- if a coyote stays in 1 location for weeks on end- leaves for a few days occasionally but always comes back to that same location to spend most of his time- Im going to take that leap and call it a core area. Now- and this is an important point- one of those Keystone bits of knowledge to me- I found a clear pattern between where my coyotes were captured, how and where they hung out when released- and how successful those individual capture sights had been over the years. I had 2 types of "areas" where we radioed coyotes 1) areas where the released coyote stayed pretty much at the capture site 2) areas where released coyotes stayed a long ways from the capture site. Records also showed that areas in group #2 were my best locations- by far. I took a big step last year- I eliminated any "1 coyote area" that was out of the way to trap. It was hard to do- but 1 coyote at a stop was wasting my time. I looked for more "social areas"- I think I found a couple... the western location I have mentioned is one such spot. I took 4 coyotes there in about 2 weeks- my first year to set it up. Usually there is a full pond there- it was dried up this past season. Those 4 coyotes were all big males- 0my top 2 coyotes as to size were in these 4- and all 4 were in top 5-6 in weight. So- core area? Doubt it. Random travel lane? maybe- Social area- maybe. But it was a choosen location based on criteria from my other known social areas. 1) high hills 2) 2 field roads coming to it 3) harvested fields on all sides- open, close cropped pasture 4) was "centered" between several good habitat areas 1-3 miles distance. Another location- A bare field sitting at least 3-4 miles from any habitat. BUT- it is part of a major waterway and has a large sand hill on it. Lots of coyote sign there all year (I trapped gophers there for years) Again- it has the needed ingredients to be suspected social area. Trapped it 2 years ago for a day or 2- got 1 coyote- good start. Last fall, trapped it for a couple of weeks before farmer plowed it- and took 4 yotes and 2 fox from it. Look at it this way- a social area- or an area where many family groups interact- would be the #1 place to make sets for a fur trapper. How could it not be? Now granted- you could say I'm just talking travel lanes- and you are partially right- all these known and suspected social areas ARE on travel lanes- the difference being is that these socai lareas are like little rest stops. Whereas on a gravel road, etc a coyote usually just travels- here he stops and spends time. I know this 2 ways 1) those nice radios 2) spring trapping- you get an inch of fresh snow and it becomes very apparent that when the coyotes got to the social areas- they spent time there- a lot of time. Remember the reports of many studies that say an average coyote on an average night will travel from 10-12 miles. This can either be as the crow flies, or over the same 1 acre field
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Post by a1foxhopper on Mar 12, 2004 8:38:06 GMT -6
What do you guys think about this.. In my area a large tract or parcel of land is maybe 80 acres. Most is split up in even smaller lots. Deer season lasts 3.5 months and everyone hunts. These dogs are getting chased and pushed from one end of the county to another constantly. I wonder,except for denning, If there is even a core or comfort area. When I find coyote sign I set it and get prepared to wait-sometimes 3 weeks or longer for them to show back up. When they do you better have multiple sets and working sets because you may not get another chance for awhile.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2004 9:23:51 GMT -6
Look at the core areas as the areas in which coyotes spend most of thier time.
Ideally- that core area is going to have plentyful food, water and shelter. But not necesarily- to me, based on a resonably intellegent guess- all three things might not be present. Shelter has to be #1.
If the woods or normal core areas are being hunted hard- the core areas will shift. Deer do the same thing- hunt an area hard for a few days- seems all the deer disappear. All they have done is shifted their core areas- the area where they spend most of their time- to safer, less disturbed areas.
The animals will filter back in on occasion to feed or water- but quickly, in and out.
Coyotes shift their core areas with the seasons, with the crops, with food changes, denning, hunters- but they still need secure, safe places. If not- they will move until they find one. What do you think just regular dispersal is- moving to find new core territories.
Someone one said that coyotes seem to use denning areas mostly for denning only.
(Speaking of denning- something interesting here. Coyote dens from our radioed females were in 1 of 2 locations: 1) rocky, inacessable areas or 2) right out in the middle of bare fields in plain sight of roads and highways).
But do they shift their social areas? Or more to the point- do they move their social areas as often?
Or do the social areas become a constant? I say yes- at least all evidence points that way. For the past 2 years I have trapped several of my locations on and off over most of the year. At what I perceive to be the social area locations- I found I could have action there at any time of the year- and will all types of coyotes- bred bitches, unbred bitches, adult males, last years pups and the seasons pups.
Add to this- the 2 known social areas have been my top producers ever since I found them and set them up 1 location maybe 10-12 years ago, the other, the best- in the last 4 years.
I could go to either location with traps today- and feel confident that I would have a coyote sometime this weekend.
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Post by a1foxhopper on Mar 12, 2004 10:00:44 GMT -6
I am sure you are probably right. I still haven't found the best locations to consistantly catch yotes. Like I have said before most of the coyote I have caught are in fox sets and to be more successful on the big dogs I have alot of learning to do. Wish I could be a fly on the wall at the PA canine demo!
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 12, 2004 11:42:48 GMT -6
Well sure I care, if thats all your talking about!
Dont all trappers focus on the better areas?
Obviously certain areas will hold coyotes better than others. We all focus on these areas. But I dont get bogged down on these labels. The so called "core" and "fringe" areas of whatever you want to call them.
When I go into an area If I find a good location I dont give one second thought to if its a core area or not. I dont fret one bit that perhaps the actions, reactions or temperment of these particular coyotes at this locations would make them easier to catch elsewhere. Who cares? I can catch em just fine right here! Research is fine and makes interesting reading, but like I tell WileyE, 90% of it has no practical application to a trapline.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2004 12:27:57 GMT -6
LOL- and what did Wiley say to you? Obviously certain areas will hold coyotes better than others. We all focus on these areas. But I dont get bogged down on these labels. The so called "core" and "fringe" areas of whatever you want to call them.
When I go into an area If I find a good location I dont give one second thought to if its a core area or not. I dont fret one bit that perhaps the actions, reactions or temperment of these particular coyotes at this locations would make them easier to catch elsewhere. Who cares? I can catch em just fine right here!you are missing the point chris- we aren't getting bogged down in labels- labels are just a means of trying to define something- to understand it better. Whats your definition of "a good location" ? Can I assume you mean "good" in regards to the chances of catching a coyote; rather than "good" meaning a physically apt spot- irregardless if coyotes are present or not? Lets say thats what you meant- that when you say "good location", you mean a location where there is a lot of coyote sign, a lot of coyotes. Do you go out, park the truck, and wander all over looking for these good locations? Hit or miss? Some days or weeks you set no traps- just can't find the locations. Wishing their might be clues so yo uweren't wandering through the Badlands... Or do you tend to gravitate toward specific features- specific areas- patterns that produced "good" locations in the past- when looking for these good locations? _____________________________________________ I'm thinking the latter. That you look for specific "clues" that you know are %wise good locations. And what is the ultimate definition of a good area- to a fur trapper? A location that produces. Knowledge that adds to your understanding of an animal- and more importantly to a trapper- knowledge that adds fur to the shed- is to me, very important. Knowing that coyotes DO NOT act the same throughout their range IS IMPORTANT. So rather than throwing traps all over tarnation- a few "good" locations could probably put the same # of cooytes on the boards. For a fur trapper going after non specific coyotes. Understanding WHAT these locations ARE and HOW a coyote responds to stimuli at these locations- is invaluable. _________________________________________ Quick question- why use dogs, calls, etc- in your coyote control work? You know the coyote is there and will come back- (if he doesn't, problem solved! ) Set a trap and catch him. Or is it perhaps that some coyotes are harder to catch in certain locations- so hard in fact, that its a waste of time trying to trap him? Wonder if that coyote would be easier to catch........in another location? In other circumstances? In a different part of their territory?
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 12, 2004 13:10:49 GMT -6
Lets say thats what you meant- that when you say "good location", you mean a location where there is a lot of coyote sign, a lot of coyotes.
do you tend to gravitate toward specific features- specific areas- patterns that produced "good" locations in the past- when looking for these good locations?
Yes on both points. And thats MY point. When I come across these spots I set them. I dont give a seconds thought about if they are in the core or on the fringe.
I dont care if he might be "easier" to catch somewhere else. I can catch him fine right here! ANYWHERE in his territory!
Quick question....Or is it perhaps that some coyotes are harder to catch in certain locations- so hard in fact, that its a waste of time trying to trap him?
Not at all. The problem is that often I cant find where they are traveling to and fro. If I can I can catch em.
IF I can locate the denning area the calling is simply quicker. Dont have to wait for the coyotes to return, dont have to go back to check traps etc..
I'm traveling a old road thru a large area of rough pastures and hills. Every place the road crosses a drainage, a stock dam, goes thru a ridge etc.. I notice coyotes tracks and dropping. Why in the world would I worry about if I'm in the "core" area? Or how the coyotes will respond to stimuli here vs. over the next hill? Or if he might be less suspecious at another spot? He's here. Why not catch him here?
BTW, Not that its important to my views, but he agreed with me.
Sure knowledge of the animal is important, but a lot of it adds nothing to the fur pile. Some guys have read way to much research and let it all this "knowledge" get in their way.
Trapping aint rocket science.
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