|
Post by robertw on May 6, 2007 10:03:00 GMT -6
TC, Did you miss the following question above?
"2) "Scientific proof" of animal welfare / injury scores now exist from the BMPs, will the Anti's use this information against trapping?"
This is a major concern voiced by many trappers about the whole BMP process.
|
|
|
Post by sinrud on May 7, 2007 16:53:05 GMT -6
t-37 It's very dimple!!! We went them snares and they didn't put them out - PERIOD!!! SINRUD
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 7, 2007 22:18:43 GMT -6
Dick, I think TC37 and Wiley have both done BMP trap testing in the past. You might want to ask them if they were involved in this testing since your snares were sent to South Dakota.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 11, 2007 11:31:33 GMT -6
Sinrud who told you they where not used?
|
|
|
Post by sinrud on May 15, 2007 18:37:55 GMT -6
TC-37 BRYANT WHITE TOLD ME - AND SO DID THE STUDY REPORT! (I assume you know who Bryant White is) Sinrud
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 16, 2007 7:17:35 GMT -6
Dick, I am very sorry to hear of this. You have been extremely patient and done everythying humanly possible to have your products evaluated in these "tests".
|
|
|
Post by sinrud on May 16, 2007 9:13:58 GMT -6
Robert, It's not just a battle over our products. It deals with FAIR TRADE and TRAPPERS RIGHTS to CHOOSE appropriate equipment. It also deals with the attitudes of various "Official" agencies and their approach to conducting business. Not just cable types or snare types but the shear thought of agencies "designing" snares without knowledge or research is scary! Their process of pick and choose is just as scary. Take North Dakota - Their "approved and named brands" were ALL tested in North Dakota using a FAULTY test procedure. This seems to me they "validate" equipment whether it's actually withing guidelines or not simply by "justifying" a test they approve even when they ARE AWARE the test are not appropriate. Once agencies do something it seems they will do everything possible to justify their actions. Sinrud
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 16, 2007 12:39:43 GMT -6
Dick, I am very much aware of the fair trade issues and how this whole process is affecting trappers rights of choice.
I consider the favortism being displayed to some manufacturers and the blatant advertising being done in at least some of the BMPs to be a real threat to this industry!
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 17, 2007 21:30:21 GMT -6
TC37, To shiny??? Does the manufacturer have to prep, boil and paint them for you guys?
Did you boil or paint the other snares used in these studies???
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 17, 2007 21:35:22 GMT -6
TC37;"The washer was not approprite size, as in the wind they kept sliding down the support wire, fixed with a crimping of the washer making them a 1 time use product."
Was this method covered and approved in the training sessions so the other trappers conducting the tests ALL used the same support methods on ALL of the snares being tested? Wouldn't you agree that if a catch was made that "crimping" the washer would keep the support wire from coming free of the snare and could impede any swiveling action of the swivel and also create additional stress to the cable and affect animal welfare?
Were you testing the snare, or the support system in this test?
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 18, 2007 5:29:48 GMT -6
Robert, I could get into this with you but I'll take the high road. To answer your questions to the point 1. NO 2. Yes 3. Had no effect on the unit, it should have been poly like the rest tested IMHO. 4. The support is key to how the cable restraint functions it is a part of the cable restraint, sloppy suport= sloppy results. Good day!
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 18, 2007 7:08:50 GMT -6
If you did not like the support collar / wammy/ washer furnished why would you use it?
IMHO, These sanres should all either have the same support system or.....You should use them with out using the collars attached to the snare..This is suppose to be a side by side comparison of the snare it's self, the locking mechanism, cable and swivel!
From your statements it is apparent that you let your bias carry over into this test and may have cost the trappers of this country an excellent tool that they need!
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on May 18, 2007 9:25:49 GMT -6
to shiny? WTF? fix it! what do you make your snares out of - rusting, 20 year old cable?
seems to me that having a bias, because YOU found them too shiny, speaks volumes.
as for too big a support washer- are you seriously giving that as a reason not to use them?
even I, with mere weeks under my belt, can solidly support the snare with just the support wire- as can any snareman that wants to use the snares...
seems to me- that your bias carried over into the tests.
As sadly, happened with the coon bmps.
this bmp train is fast becoming dis-railed- too much favoritism for certain brands and products rather than a FAIR testing.
sound familiar? DeJa vu all over again aka coon bmps.....
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 18, 2007 12:20:47 GMT -6
The part that scares me the worst is that of three common braids of cable available to trappers the BEST cable for live restraints on coyotes is the 1x19 (Thompson Cable). It would seem that there is an INTENTIONAL effort to keep this cable from being used by many trappers. If it is the intent of those running the BMP tests to protect the future of "Cable Restraints" 1x19 cable (Thompson cable) should be the only cable recomended for coyotes under 1/8" in diameter. I feel confident that an honest evaluation (by PROFFESIONAL UN-BIASED TRAPPERS) at chew outs and losses from cable failure will prove 1x19 to be the BEST cable for live restraint.
Current Cable Restraint Data endorses the use of 7x19 cable in cable restraints.. Coyotes cut through 7x19 like a hot knife through butter and I believe that infected coyotes wearing cable necklaces are going to eventually cause the loss of this tool in many states.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 18, 2007 13:31:08 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on May 18, 2007 13:53:40 GMT -6
of course it rusts- and of course shiny cable can be made unshiny in minutes-
so why even mention it? Why make a point to state that it was your "#1 fault with the snares?"
its time this bmp testing was made public WITH the names of those involved in the testing. After all- whats there to hide?
I'll let Dick debate you on the snares-
my point on the "shineyness and washer" is more than made.
|
|
|
Post by sinrud on May 18, 2007 15:16:57 GMT -6
TC-37, Yes - I am sure what Bryant said! In fact the test report indicated no Thompson snares were used. The report was considered to have insufficient data to make any conclusion of its intent. I DO HAVE A COPY OF THIS STUDY!! We sell over 100,000 snares a year and for over 80 years! You are saying our “support washer” doesn’t work (or the wrong size)? What’s your problem??? Can’t you figure out how to use it? Everyone else seems to know! Perhaps you should take lessons on using ALL snares rather than you own little “pet choice”. “1. Way to shiny on the locks,cable and the metal washer used to hold 9ga wire for support”. This doesn’t even qualify for a response - it’s simply an ignorant statement! “2. The washer was not appropriate size, as in the wind they kept sliding down the support wire, fixed with a crimping of the washer making them a 1 time use product. “ If you can’t figure out how to make a slight bend in a support wire to hold a washer in position or use a simple bobby pin, paper clip, “U” clip or one of many other simple devices to stabilize a snare on a support then perhaps you should stick with other trap devices. A simple fact is that the agencies have ALWAYS claimed snares are a “1 time use item” to begin with - we do NOT support this. Our snares have been used several times by many trappers. “The support is key to how the cable restraint functions it is a part of the cable restraint, sloppy support= sloppy results.” Support systems are NOT a part of snares (or cable restraints) any more than the dirt at the location. To say this is like saying seat belts are the key to how a driver operates their vehicle! I would highly recommend you learn how to use and understand ALL snare equipment before you consider yourself a “qualified snare man”!!! Your knowledge is considerably lacking! Your attitude is similar to a person with a drivers license claiming ALL vehicles must be supplied with a Automatic transmission because they don’t know how to use a Manual transmission! I fail to understand how a person so lacking in experience can make claim to accurate conclusions period or be allowed to participate in such research programs. Your Myopic views and understnading are NOT worth comment!!! PERIOD. There are thousands of “real” snare men outh there that have succesfully used our snare for over 80 years!!!!! IF YOU WANT TO LEARN ABOUT SNARES LET ME KNOW! If you want a “private” education ( to save embarrasment) send me a private e-mail. Your “mind set” is familar to me - seems I see it all the time from various agencies!! Debates and arguments should be based on complete facts rather than single minded opinions. Sinrud
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on May 18, 2007 19:04:00 GMT -6
how do his comments say he would rather sell snares than actually use them?
I see nothing like that in his comments.
No- what I see is someone wanting a fair test for his euqiupment- and honesty in language and testing.
|
|
|
Post by robertw on May 18, 2007 20:11:04 GMT -6
TC37, Would you please explain exactly what your training session for this study was comprised of. What you could and could not use for support systems and who your technichian was that recorded the data in the feild?
|
|
|
Post by sinrud on May 18, 2007 21:12:47 GMT -6
MY COMMENT: “Yes - I am sure what Bryant said! In fact the test report indicated no Thompson snares were used. The report was considered to have insufficient data to make any conclusion of its intent. I DO HAVE A COPY OF THIS STUDY!!” YOUR REPLY: “That explains alot, it is not that they were not tested just not enough results to quantify it!” Can’t you read??? Best you call Bryant and ask him! 573-882-9909-3316 or e-mail <bryant.white@mdc.mo.gov>. YOUR COMMENT: ‘Sinrud, your comments show you would rather sell snares than actually use them!’ I set my first snare in 1949 - and learned from the expert of all experts (my grandfather)! I have never tried to falsely promote our equipment or discredit other equipment - only the concept of EQUALITY AND CHOICE!!! YOUR COMMENT: “I don't want or need an extra item to connect my snares for a solid support!” --- “Ever hear of whammies or yet better cheap poly tubing one can buy to fit nice and snug with no added hardware needed?“ What do you think these “cheap poly tubbings one can buy to fit nice and snug” are, other than add-ons “. ? YOUR COMMENT: “I snare plenty of coyotes with my crud and close minded methods” Are you saying trappers should use your “crud and close minded methods” If you are so involved with the “BMP” - is this their concept as well? A “pissing match”!!! I have no reason to do this. You get wet enough all by yourself! To intelligently discuss issues with you is like teaching a toddler science - totally impractical! There are those who live in shadows and deny the existence of the sun. There are those who live in Arctic climates who deny temperatures above 60°. They live in their own space, never experiencing reality! Narrow minds live in small spaces. I’M DONE ! Sinrud
|
|