bmp debates- sans rhetoric

[Steve Gappa]

enough of the rhetoric on both sides- I love the dozs but it gets bogged down. Lets debate the bmps in a logical manner- convince me I'm wrong-

are you game?

To start off- do you have a link to the results? Unti lyou do- lets look at history...

1) Point one- how and why was 55 chosen as the passing score for injuries (thresholds)? Who primarily pushed for these limits? Who was opposed?

2) sub point- what animal was this primarily developed for? What are the demerits and how many points for teeth, scrapes, claws, cuts, etc?

[trappincoyotes39]

Boy tman can't keep me gone long!!!
The injury score system we use to measure trap performance was
developed by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO)
and are used by trap testing researchers in Canada, Russia, and Europe,
as well as in the US. Each trap related injury an animal sustains
receives a point value, based on the severity of the injury (e.g., claw
loss=2 points, digit amputation= 25 points, fracture = 50
points...etc). The point values for the injuries, if there are any, are
then totaled for each trapped animal. Each animal receives a score; the
scores are pooled for each trap type and species, and then we caluclate
the average for each trap type/species (which must be 55 points or less
to pass) The fifty-five point system we use is based in part on an
older trap related injury scale (the olsen scale) which was already
widely accepted, plus, IAFWA consulted with wildlife biologists around
the country, trapping experts, and veterinary pathologists that were
well known for their trap related injury research (we didn't use vets
who were biased against trapping, but those who supported it). We
don't have any connection with AVMA (American Veterinary Medicine
Assoc). The final decision for the 55 point system rested with the IAFWA
Furbearer Resoruces Technical Workgroup, which consists of state
furbearer biologists....who are all huge supporters of trapping in their
states. These guys (the TWG) did all the hard work of consulting with
so many people, and made their decision based on all of that input.

So, there was a lot of input from everybody (trapping experts,
biologists, veterinarians), consideration of the scale that was already
in place, and all this was based on the use of internationally accepted
standards. I think that was a sound process that gave everyone a chance
to voice their concerns, as well as including good science.

Also, the 55 point system is not the only criteria we use to rate
traps. 70% of the animals in a sample must have no injuries considered
moderately severe or severe based on the ISO standards I mentioned
above. For killing traps, animals must be "insensibly unconscious
leading to death" in a maximum of 300 seconds for most species. For
submerence sets, any trap that is efficient on land, will be recommended
for submergence sets for semi-aquatic species. Also, a trap must have a
minimum efficiency rating of 60%. We also measure selectivity, and
consider practicality, and safety of the traps, though these criteria
are judged by the species ad hoc goups that oversee the BMPs.

Contrary to what some may be saying, I think BMPs will support trapping
and trappers. I don't think the chicken little approach is going to
help anybody. End of email my thoughts.
I hope this clears up any questions on why the coon bmp could not be altered as far as injury score goes, again to do so would have made the whole process a scam, I know you think it is anyway, but just read again what Bryant wrote. 70% must have no injurys in the moderate to severes classification, look at what toes are worth 2 toes marginal 3 don't pass, and the 70% issue, what would toes have to be dropped to to acheieve a passing score plus the 70%, you would be making up a threshold to fit the bill of raccoons and skunks only. I don't think the BMP process would benefit from species specific injury scores, leaves the door open for many, many people to cry foul!
When testing one thing against another you have to have an equal base line or to move that line for this species or that doesn't give you a true testing outcome or creditabilty either. Yes the coon and skunk are different critters with there chewing, but muskrats and wring offs will be another issue as well.
The coon bmp will be out soon, it will be an interesting read.

[trappincoyotes39]

AS a side bar to the above email from Bryant W, this process was never going to please all invloved and the powers that be new this, but none the less it has gone forward. Trappers are skeptical by nature anything new is given a stern look at the question all trappers ask first in there minds, "yeh but will it really do what they claim?"
I guess on the BMP issue time will tell, until then were all along for the ride like it (tc35) or not (tman). The funny thing about the future no one can predicit it. WE can try and do what we feel will help the cause.

[SgtWal]

Canada uses the same ISO standards? Maybe that explains why it is ilegal up there to set a foothold for raccoon. None are approved.


wayne

[trappincoyotes39]

Just because other countires use the same ISO standards doesn't mean they all will test or make legal all tools. Some states allow dry land conibears others don't, some allow killing snares, while others don't, some have a max jaw spread for dry land sets others don't. Doesn't mean a thing.
It is still up to the states and Canada can make legal or illegal anything they chose to, why because it's there country.
I see Canada going killer type traps for as much as possible, why I have zero idea, but thats there deal. I'm concerned about The US and what states make policy, Canada is down my list.

[trappincoyotes39]

I have found out when the coon bmp is printed and sent out, There will be an added section for coons in the southern US and how those test and data differed. From the North and Midwest, kind of like the coyote BMP East and West.

[Stef]

In my province, Québec... We can't use foothold for raccoons for years...
The "coon law" is there for long time.... And that decision was done a long time before all those trap testing etc... started.
Same with fisher, marten, weasel, squirrel etc...

Stef

[trappnman]

so the only thing you can trap with foothold on land is canines? skunks maybe?