location success rates

[trappnman]

This past season, and i'd have to recalculate, I figured out the success rate of every location- those that gave me zero, those that gave me 1, and those that gave me 2, and those that gave me 3+.

I figured it out not so much as a fact on my % of locations that produced (I could easily eliminate some locations, and have 100% location success) but more for S & G.

so for last year:

0 coyote 19%
1 coyote 36%
2 coyotes 23%
3) coyotes 22%

Overall 81% of my locations last season, caught at least 1 coyote during the 6 to 8 days they were set.

Some of the 0 locations were on same overall farms as 3) locations and in past the 0 was the producer, the multiple ran dry, so worth setting up both.

What jumped out at me, was that on 55% of my locations, I caught 1 or zero coyotes.

On 45% of my locations, I caught multiples.

and on most of those 1 coyote locations- it was coyote 1st night, almost always a youngster (which led me to think oh boy here comes mom and siblings) and then nothing.

THAT imo is the result of setting on real or imaginary singular tracks. 1 coyote there, I got him, and thats all she wrote.

It makes me wonder about the density of coyotes (I have yet to see any study here that even puts a clue in it, those dnr scent station tablets are worthless in my opinion for an accurate count, as is the spacing of such stations.

[Deleted]

and on most of those 1 coyote locations- it was coyote 1st night, almost always a youngster (which led me to think oh boy here comes mom and siblings) and then nothing.

THAT imo is the result of setting on real or imaginary singular tracks. 1 coyote there, I got him, and thats all she wrote.

It makes me wonder about the density of coyotes (I have yet to see any study here that even puts a clue in it, those dnr scent station tablets are worthless in my opinion for an accurate count, as is the spacing of such stations.

Yup, as your data shows, it happens more often than not and it also, IMO, depends on the number of trap nights.  I track/1 catch, 2 tracks, 2 coyotes, 3 tracks/3 coyotes but now it takes more time, more waiting, more trap nights.  At a stall-out your liable to catch 1/2 the group real quick and the rest only a little slower but more or  less all in a short period of time.

Also, there doesn't seem to be this steady backfilling I've read so much about.  Catch the homies and that's all you're going to catch.  I actually show this in some of my recently posted videos(the sandy ones)!  I catch the homies and I've learned from a dozen years on several of these properties, like the slash/pit "sandy" videos, that there will NOT be any coyotes taking their place in literally weeks, several years if was over a month.  Remember, I'm on these same properties all year-round, studying and following coyote.s  This IMHO is all related to coyote population of the area and actually beyond because of the absence of numbers of dispersals.

Here is a property that I did have a stall-out on but it got bulldozed away(https://youtu.be/ZVEPTrna7yQ  ).  I could expect at that time about 8-9 years ago I would have a steady trickle of dispersals coming across that knoll/corner.  Jump ahead 4 years and the stall-out moved to an intersection as seen in this video-https://youtu.be/3iVlOw_goqY.  I caught a total of 6 coyote and 6 red fox in 18 nights.  That has now disappeared due to the clearing of wooded acreage at each end of the travel-way.  Last year I never set a trap and the 2 years previous I caught only 1 coyote each year.

Here is a great example that I explain in the video, this coyote was the ONLY coyote to come back through that that many nights. youtu.be/KhGuQF4qauI

Here's another single coyote, 1 track 1 coyote in 12 nights.  There were no other coyote that used that field, I had 2 other sets on that property.  What are you going to do when you only have permission on a 40 and you find a track?  Are you going to say "well I'm going to keep pounding on doors trying to get permission just to scout".  if you do gain permission and find either no tracks or 1 track the chance of finding a stall-out are next to 0 also, we are experienced enough to have a very good idea which properties offer what!
youtu.be/QrYg9H8S_iM
BTW, folks ask me why I set so far out in the field instead of tight to the fence-line.  The single track was right where I made my set, there were NO tracks from there to the fence-line AND the fence-line was downwind of my set!!

Hopefully I didn't get too far off track with this reply trying to make a point that some of us have to use what we're given.  I also admit ,I get real bored being on the same property everyday for 10-13 days!

[Griz]

Aug 5, 2021 9:42:35 GMT -6 @seldom46 said:

and on most of those 1 coyote locations- it was coyote 1st night, almost always a youngster (which led me to think oh boy here comes mom and siblings) and then nothing.

THAT imo is the result of setting on real or imaginary singular tracks. 1 coyote there, I got him, and thats all she wrote.

It makes me wonder about the density of coyotes (I have yet to see any study here that even puts a clue in it, those dnr scent station tablets are worthless in my opinion for an accurate count, as is the spacing of such stations.

Yup, as your data shows, it happens more often than not ...

Also, there doesn't seem to be this steady backfilling I've read so much about.  Catch the homies and that's all you're going to catch.  I actually show this in some of my recently posted videos(the sandy ones)!  I catch the homies and I've learned from a dozen years on several of these properties, like the slash/pit "sandy" videos, that there will NOT be any coyotes taking their place in literally weeks, several years if was over a month.  ...

... What are you going to do when you only have permission on a 40 and you find a track?  Are you going to say "well I'm going to keep pounding on doors trying to get permission just to scout".  if you do gain permission and find either no tracks or 1 track the chance of finding a stall-out are next to 0 also, we are experienced enough to have a very good idea which properties offer what! ...

Hopefully I didn't get too far off track with this reply trying to make a point that some of us have to use what we're given.  I also admit ,I get real bored being on the same property everyday for 10-13 days!

I too question the coyote population levels not just on the property that I have permission on, but in the general area of the property (say 20 miles diameter around the property).  One would think that if there was a high coyote population around the area there would be new animals filtering in since they would be pressured in the surrounding area or moving in through dispersal.  It would seem that since new animals don't usually move in, then the animals in the surrounding are are not that crowded indicating coyotes can comfortably exist in high concentration areas, or coyotes are more home-body types than is often described.

Find a track, catch a coyote, and move on seems like a good strategy in my area. Also catching a coyote this year does not add this site to more than a be-sure-to-check-this-site-next-year-for-sign list. It seems that even my really good sites only sustain themselves for a few years before the site changes due to conversion to a development, habitat changes, or even insertion of an acreage.

[Deleted]

IMHO Griz, you're right on the money!!  Again, great job explaining the situation.

[braveheart]

I ran into the same thing for the last 2-3 yrs. Roll in double or more and it goes dead. And it never improves, Something has been killing my pups, They are thin and even some adults. I let a big chunk of ground lay last year never trapped it. I will see what happens this year.

[Deleted]

My eastern line is in houndsmen territory and running coyotes and shooting before they cross roads is historicly a big deal here.  Last year I got permission from one of the houndsmen (bean field coyote) to trap his field(he can’t run coyotes on it because their club has him in a different unit.  Anyway, he said that their coyote kill has been way off the past few years.

I’ve had two properties that I tested lures on under camera and each had a den nearby, even got video of mom moving puppies.  I had coyotes on both until late summer until early Oct, then they disappeared and I mean disappeared!!  I continually scouted each property from 11/1 thru 5/1 and I only cut 1 track between the two during the period!!!  That’s crazy.

 Marty says his looks sick but I’m wondering now with the infra-red scopes and silencers allowed for night hunting here and spring-time killing of the bitches with pups in the den is having a negative impact on population.  It seems as though it would. 

[trappnman]

to be clear- I'm not advocating see a track, set it. Note- the coyotes are coming in night 1 or 2- so I'm stil lsetting their personal core area/stall out points.

Just no fill.

Yet- I have 3 locations that are close to home, and overlap on my 1st and 3rd lines. Neither are real hotspots, but both give me coyotes and fox. All three are near dairies, but more typical travel areas.

So on these 3 locations, I leave all but the trap, and rest later. all three give me coyotes, usually singular, on both set up periods.

Those are see a track set up locations for sure.....but they are the exception for me not the norm

[braveheart]

I know one guy that shoots a night scope No suppressor . But he has no ambition hunts with 2-3 people. Guess he is afraid of the dark LOL . Says he see's packs of coyotes and throws crazy numbers of coyotes he gets. One time this cattle guy called me I got 5 coyotes in 2 nights on cow an calf herd. This guy said he shot 12 in one night. I told him why did they stay around after you shot he had no answer.

[flathead40]

How much do you think dispersal happens? I don't believe it's anything like people claim it is. They talk like it's a great migration of coyotes. They check the calendar and say.. that's it, moving day. Nope, I don't believe that at all. Most areas seem to have plenty food and habitat to support coyotes around here. If they were up against the carrying capacity of the area, it probably would be different.

[Deleted]

That's a darn good question & comment.

Here is my take on dispersal here where I trap.  Almost every summer I'll find family groups using some of my properties and I keep pretty darn close tabs on them.  Heck, I'm retired and coyotes are my life so to speak, other than my wife.  Right about October 1st I lose the families except for maybe 1 or 2.  Some years those 1-2 families I can keep track of will still be together into early November when I set.  I will kill those families, the homies, that are still running together at that time with no difficulty.  

Back to those families that disappeared, when they disappeared ,it went from 4-5 coyote down to 1-2 coyote continuing to use that property.  All of the families are largely away from the denning sites but are found out hunting their territory but suddenly there is no family!  The "group/unit" no longer exists except for the odd family as I've said.  I've observed happening year after year.  My wife actually is a darn good barometer when the coyote families "break" because I'll start coming home from scouting and instead of her hearing me tell about finding this family and that family she'll hear me tell how they've disappeared!  Her usual comment is " So AGAIN you don't have the coyotes you thought you had, right!" LOL  The higher the population the higher the % of me keeping contact with the intact families into trapping season.

Maybe these "broken" families are still all using the property but in a very loose configuration, like a trickle through mode but sign doesn't lie when you go from lots of sign to a single track or two on the travel-ways.  Just because there's a crop harvest doesn't mean that the families don't travel to the better hunting within their territory because they certainly do and when they do they leave readable sign but there is a difference between family sign amounts and singular sign.  Even having a loose-knit family group still using the same territory I would/should also see multiple sign of coyotes traveling trough across a period of nights rather than a single night.  Does NOT happen IMHO and observations here, the family has broken and there is just plain fewer coyote using the same territory!  For all I know is that they flew away because sign shows they aren't there!  I believe this is what people call "dispersal".

In addition, I don't see any back-filling into territories until late winter whether the back-filling is from disperals or just coyotes expanding territory with the homies not there to defend it.  

IMO and observations, dispersals do show different travel and general movement sign and in very different locations than the homies do.

[trappnman]

Here is my take-

Its not unusual that family groups change areas after the true denning part of the cycle is complete. Denning areas aren't always the final living areas.

I think that by fall, indeed most likely about this time of year- the pups are going out more on their own. They are finding food source,s either taught or own their own. Now, instead of a pair of, hunting that area to feed the pups, the pups are now darn near full size, and have increasing food needs, thus they spread out from that concentrated area.

If we were to trap a month or two earlier, those concentrations are still there- now, the concentrations aren't but the coyotes are still "there". Well, maybe not there, but around.

Life is easy.

Now- you have crop harvest and unless in true row crop country, you can't imagine how this changes the landscape here. What was hundreds of acres of prime habitat, habitat those coyotes grew up in- is gone. Overnight.

So now those YOY scatter even more.

To me- for the most part, I do feel my one and 2 coyote spots is a result of that. One thing about reduced habitat, is it gives increased pinpointing of spots for those 1 or 2.

But- be in the right spot- because there still will be, and I'll believe this to my dying day- attraction points that DO not perhaps fill in quick (although the real good ones do) but appeal to multiple coyotes/groups. I have one little series of locations- 8 traps in 4 places on I'd guess 4 connected farms. with beef on 2 sides, dairy on 1, and 2 more beef places within a mile of so. I think, over a 10 day to 2 week period, I caught 16 coyotes there. and thats typical. My most consistent locations and have been for 30 years. Down the road a few miles, is a pair of 3 locations- close to 2 other dairies. In 3 set ups there- caught 8. and that repeats every year, even with a major habitat change.

So the coyotes are still there...I just have to be better at finding "there".

Back to dispersal. I think thats a true high population thing ie fox.

Never seen it here to my knowledge. Its just a move on over thing.

[Deleted]

"Scattering" is a good term for what I think dispersal really is.  When row crops are gone and the "fall shuffle" is going on and the pups are "scattering" I have not seen where either has increased the population (more sign) on my properties enough for me to recognize the increase anyway.  Otherwise, I'd shock my wife me coming home from scouting telling her I've got an increase of coyotes on all my properties! LOL  So, I think that when these two things occur each fall I believe there is a pinball affect that happens with the "scattering".  Pups bouncing here and there off other's territories and other's prey habitat so there is never an actual increase to a properties population, just a leveling off of occupants.  

[Deleted]

I can understand the 16 number.  Only a couple years after I got into coyotes I caught 16 coyotes in 12 nights on two adjacent properties.  One property was a 500 acre deer property with a working sand pit and the other, 1 mile away was a diary farm.  The families were intact when I set traps on 11/1.  In 12 nights I caught 10 coyotes on the deer/pit property, 2 breeding females, 2 old males (42# & 44#), and 6 pups.  A mile away I caught 1 breeding female, 1 adult male and 4 pups in the same number of nights.  I have NEVER caught that many coyotes between those properties since.  Absolutely nothing has changed the features of those properties except the pit is bigger and I have more slash than big timber on the property but 1000's of acres of big woods around it. My population dropped steadily from that year down to 3 coyotes a year on the deer/pit and last year I never set a trap on the diary farm due to no sign!

Now, where is the fall shuffle, the scattering, the dispersal, or the families??  I set a trap & kill a coyote, set 3 traps kill 3 coyote that's how I roll without a scattering of pups. I just kill the homies and wait 14 more nights for a scattered pup!  Forget the row crop harvesting, if there are few coyotes, there isn't a scattering because the fall prey base remains static regardless, no change!  The coyote that were in the crops were also in the brush & woods at the SAME TIME!  All part of their territory to begin with, all part of the travel cycle.  Picture this- a sq section upon sq section of row crops with a 20-40 -80-120 acre woodlot in the center off on a side makes no difference because it's used by the coyote for denning AND prey AND on the coyote's travel cycle, part of a families territory.  This is historicly houndsmen country, coyote traveling between woods, run fence-lines ,cross roads and the dogs are put on them.  The coyotes are in the woodlots for a reason from pre-harvest time to next planting!

Which takes me back to a previous post.  Where do you set to catch coyotes traveling between woodlots before or after harvest?   If you're lucky to get permission on the RIGHT fence-line the one that shows sign of travel, you set the fence-lines!

OK, so the coyote can't hunt the crops after harvest, well they were in between wooded areas while in the crops, they already were hunting them and had them as part of their base territory and on their travel-ways!  There is no "lets all move to the brush, there is no more corn" because they were already there in the brush as part of their territorial cycle! The lower the population the less impact dispersal/scattering to the point of being nonexistent has on an area.

With a low population of coyote the scattering pups actually should have more time to spend in an area because with extra prey habitat that isn't being defended as frequently, it can hang around until the boss shows up and runs it off.

I think I REPEATED myself at least twice trying to write this--SORRY! LOL

[Deleted]

Here's what I spent all that time trying to describe- youtu.be/zLPCJCygeMU

[trappnman]

"Well they were in between wooded areas while in the crops, they already were hunting them and had them as part of their base territory and on their travel-ways! There is no "lets all move to the brush, there is no more corn" because they were already there in the brush as part of their territorial cycle! "

Kinda. if I get into the real flat areas around me, coyotes are rare because of what you implied- no off season habitat to speak of. and I found that out real quick. While it might be a perfect location insofar as a big dairy, silage piles, compost pile- its not worth setting up simply because there is nothing there for habitat beyond the corn.

So even if Im on a flat farm there HAS to be habitat somewhere around, and here we are talking not woods per se- but coulees and hills that DO have woods- otherwise- its farmed.

So- the adults for sure know the score- concentrate in the coulees and hills during post harvest and winter and then spread out for denning. And where do many of these dens occur? Right dab smack in the middle of planted corn and bean fields. I've seen it multiple times.

We have a unique feature to our crops here and that is strip farming was perfected in this area, and still persists to this day. we have rolling hill fields, with terraces and a myriad of connecting waterways (that often have little wet spots, brush growths etc) which provide good pup rearing habitat. and about the time the pups are weaned, 99% of those waterways are cut for hay - opening up a highway map of travel lanes (that all would show a track or two over time but my lord the traps one needed to set (and once upon a time I did just that).  Coyote scat during milk stage of corn looks like coon scat from a corn field. So its habitat, and food. Plus the mice, bunnies, etc in the corn.

Those YOY coyotes have no concept of extended range, or wintering grounds. They learn, or die- but they don't know it when on one day all their habitat is gone overnight- literally going from standing corn, to gone, to plowed in a matter of a few days at most. I've many times seen a corn field standing, next day its plowed ground.

now- those YOY coyotes, and remember I mentioned that earlier the 1 and 2 seemed to be a majority (or a singleton old male) are panicked.

Those YOY don't have a clue- the very places they were hunting and catching voles (#1 food here) and living the good life, disappeared. You bet they are confused......

so its no more corn..... and its sweet jesus what is happening.......

As far as fill in. When I remarked that an area of mine seemed to be knocked down over the years, it was explained like this: By setting traps in concentration, year after year, and expanding that concentration- I was in effect ADC trapping.

Think of my area as a circle- when no one was killing coyotes outside that circle, if good habitat it would soon fill in. but by trapping further expanding circles- I was taking the bulk of those able to fill in- now the fill in had to occur in 2 stages- the 2nd circle first, then mine. Now expand that to another circle, or add another trapper of trappers ete- there are more stages to fill along the way.

So what I have now, with my trapping 2 fairly small counties over 30 years, and add in the other hunters, trappers, farmers.....the cream of the population is gone- and not like out west where there is habitat never seen except by cows and coyotes- here, there are few hidden spots- I hit them in the fields, the hunters hunt the coulees and hills with or without dogs during the winter.

So, imo, I have a fairly stable (over my entire trapping territory) population, but few real concentration points. I probably could eliminate all but 20 or so locations, and catch 80% of the coyotes I do now. but...always, and it happens multiple places every year- a 1 or 2 or 0 location the previous year, has a family group still together and I can pop a bunch.

Here is an example- farmer said he didn't want me trapping his place, cause of the neighbors dogs (I had trapped it for years w/o catching a dog but there you go) but said I could trap the son's place next door. Went in, didn't see much..set up night 1 a double, night 2 a double and then 3 singletons in a week. Good lord- this WAS the spot.

Its been 10 years or more- I catch 2 to 3 like clockwork every year, nothing likke the 7- one of my come back locations so I usualy catch 1 or 2 earlty, then the same late plus always a few fox. so- that 7...mom and kids.

and I have another I've trapped since the beginning- always a couple, but every few years is 5,6,or 7 cause I was there at the right time. 

[trappnman]

Nice logo btw.........

[Deleted]

I'd say we're pretty much in agreement especially with the cause & effect scenario.

I think one of the biggest handicap we have as trapping forum people is we really aren't able to envision what the general countryside that's being trapped looks like in other parts of the country.  We try to relate it to our own but that really doesn't work very well.

Knew you'd like it!

[trappnman]

Agreed.

[Griz]

I agree as well. What has been said is consistent with what I see in my area of primarily corn/bean acreage.

I would add that the resident family does not all panic and split up or leave the general area when harvest occurs. Coyotes have been observed chasing rabbits at night as the combing runs rabbits out of the standing corn. However, soon after harvest, it seems that families move or break up. I think several things are happening as individuals in a family react to individual situations. For example,

1. some YOY are like teenagers that want to separate from the folks,

2. some YOY are pressured away from the folks' territory due to reduced food supply (possibly the folks no longer want to share a declining food supply),

3. some families spread out over a wider area wiith more space between family members than occurred since denning (possible indicating that the population is not as dense as some thought and reported),

4. some family members stay in the "home" territory (concerning #3 & #4, there is room for a coyote to lay in a fencerow during the day in a vast area of crop fields and there are several places for a coyote to spend the day visible in Seldom's video, but not a family.)

5. some YOY bounce around like pinballs as described above (one tagged YOY that was radio-collar tagged was observe to travel over 50 miles before it ended up in a territory in which it stayed).

This is not intended to be a complete list of activities going on within what is generally called "dispersal". However, there is a shuffling movement of coyotes at or right after harvest time and described by Seldom above as like pinballs. The point that I see in much of what is written above and consistent with my experience is that this shuffling movement is not a prolonged event that covers the trapping season. Once the shuffle occurs, the population sort of stabilizes at this post-shuffle situation with much less movement from one location to another as new individual winter territories are established to locate wintertime food sources. Unless there is a major attraction like a carcass pile, individual coyotes move farther between food sources post-shuffle, whether those food sources are gut piles from deer kills or individual mice, voles, rabbits, etc. Also, once a large food source is found during winter (gut pile, carcass, concentration of mice, voles, or rabbits), the individual coyote may stay close to that food source until it is gone, moving less than if the food source is much smaller like a single mouse, vole, or rabbit.

[Deleted]

Along the same lines as this topic, I've become a believer in those studies that said kill 75% of the coyotes for 5 years and you'll see a reduction in population.  I started back trapping canines with footholds in 2006.  I'd already spent several years lethal snaring them so I knew at least where they were in the winter months.

In my county there wasn't any real hounds-men running coyotes because of the big woods so close but in the open crop land in the county on the east side of mine, running & gunning coyotes was a big deal and had been for decades.  The hounds-men hung coyotes in their front yard trees throughout the entire winter months showing their kills.  So I start setting in my county and I've got serious coyote sign to set on and did very well for maybe 4-5 years straight.

I moved a line over into the eastern county and found less sign but still plenty enough to trap and do pretty well.  Well, after 5-8 years of doing this my coyote population/sign dropped big-time!  Now my county had me trapping & snaring for over a dozen years the same properties and to the east, I'd been hammering the coyote along WITH the hounds-men. Everybody was experiencing a population drop!

Now we have then entrance of the year-round, after-dark caller/shooter about 4 years ago when the popularity really jump-started.  The hounds-men ran coyotes in the winter, I trapped in the late fall into winter, but the shooters shot all year round.  That's a heck of alot of pressure to put on a population of coyotes in any given area over that period of time I'd think.