|
Post by braveheart on Jul 26, 2021 14:33:38 GMT -6
It is a tough call when to pull and move 10 days 2 week? I my self test only with a trap. I no time to play trapper .I have new stuff I need to test I run it first day to last day of season. When I go South I use it or at home or way out west. I have come up with 2 new baits and 5 new lures and if I need help testing I put it in able hands and ask for truthful evaluation. When I set it is a cluster of at least 4 traps to play a wind angles and like Steve the cow head is the stopper. About every 5 miles is my distance between stops hopefully my location coyotes over lap that is the killer spot. Also the exact spot is a very hard thing to teach or show a person.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 15:00:00 GMT -6
Nice to see you’re still around on this board Marty.
|
|
Griz
Demoman...
Posts: 240
|
Post by Griz on Jul 26, 2021 15:04:10 GMT -6
"For example, in a high coyote population area, a coyote may come through a location every night or two. In a low coyote population, a coyote may come through a location only every 14 days. If a good scent/bait catches the first coyote past the set, 1 catch per two trap nights would occur in the high population area while 1 catch per 14 days would occur in the low population area indicating the high population area is the best location. However, each location would have 1 catch per set indicating the scents are equal." " Now I don't agree with that at all. It has nothing to do with population on individual coyotes- only if trying for numbers, does population come into play. I hear that all the time giving demos- that "my coyotes only come around every couple, three weeks" and I believe them- and where they are setting traps, I have no doubt that is true. ... But lets forget the studies- lets just look at logic in predator behaviors. ..."Two issues are mixed to the point that we do not get clarity on issues 1 or issue 2 and neither do we have clarity on the fruit salad mix of issues 1 and 2. Issue 1 which I responded to Seldom's comment is the interpretation of two mathematical calculations: catch per trap night and catch per set location. Issue 2 is coyote behavior. To clarify issue 1: "catch per trap night ranks trap locations from best to worst, and catch per set location ranks scents/baits from best to worst." These are the correct interpretations of those mathematical calculations, since neither mathematical calculation has any implications as to why the coyote did what he/she did. The mathematical calculation "catch per trap night" ranks trap locations from best to worst. Mixing in coyote behavior only tries to explain why the best locations are the best and the worst locations are the worst. Thus, the mathematical calculation simply ranks locations from best to worst and coyote behavior provides some explanation of why the ranking may make sense. The mathematical calculation "catch per set location" ranks scents/baits from best to worst. Mixing in coyote behavior only contributes an explanation of the time a coyote takes to pass the location and have a chance to react or don't react to the scent and get caught or why a coyote does or doesn't react to the scent and get caught. Applied to the trapline, the goal is to use scents with a high "catch per set location" in locations that have a high "catch per trap night". Successful, experienced trappers pursue this goal by over time replacing scents that do not work well for them with scents that work better for them either on the line or in comparison tests and continually adding new permissions and dropping less productive permissions. Realistically, all traplines have locations we set because we can not get permission on the property that we would like to have or we have not yet figured out where we need to be. As a result, we enjoy the pursuit of the goal; seeking it lovingly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 15:10:11 GMT -6
Glad you wrote that, you said it way better than I could write a post saying the same thing. Must be something about folks understanding or not what I write. I understand what you write about what I’m trying to convey! LOL
|
|
Griz
Demoman...
Posts: 240
|
Post by Griz on Jul 26, 2021 15:12:37 GMT -6
Thanks for the compliment.
|
|
|
Post by braveheart on Jul 27, 2021 3:41:12 GMT -6
I have went almost 100 percent flat sets. I always run 2 lures on my grab sticks or bones. One being a food lure other a curiosity type lure . And it is very mild stuff except super cold and wind blown area when trying to draw them over to me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2021 5:25:16 GMT -6
I have went almost 100 percent flat sets. I always run 2 lures on my grab sticks or bones. One being a food lure other a curiosity type lure . And it is very mild stuff except super cold and wind blown area when trying to draw them over to me. I can easily see doing a combo on grubstakes for sure. With my work this spring & summer learning how to use grubstakes and certainly the lures to use under cameras your use of "mild" lures fits right in with what Boddicker writes. I've certainly found lure amounts critical of certain lures pertaining to a rolling response vs grabbing the head and running off with the stake. The one other thing I've been watching close is the coyote's approach and subsequent distance & stance at the stake. Also, if there is a difference to the approach whether the grubstake's head is below the ground surface, tucked in a grass clump, or just the head visible out in the open. I wanted to learn about grubstakes specificlly for winter use(frozen ground & snow depth) and what I've observed todate is that I'm more comfortable and more in control with my Miranda walk-thru style set with the 2 holes in bare, soft ground.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2021 6:42:08 GMT -6
Here's a pair of mild "grubstake lures" with reactions that folks can have different/mixed opinions about. youtu.be/NfW16OusQC4Here's a different test with a bait that is one of my top, underground producers for years. youtu.be/Rc8c6qMLVfk
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 27, 2021 7:36:54 GMT -6
How interesting Marty- we both use your lures exclusively, yet my feelings on what to use, are quite different. Mild is a cuss word to me even in hot weather.
Regarding flat sets- thats interesting as well. Were you primarily a dirthole man, then changed over, and if so, how long ago was that?
I ask, because I went through something similar. I was using dirtholes, primarily stepdowns, but wanted to try flat sets and could never get the hang of it until reading Mirandas book, and then the following year talking to Odon in Nebraska. Tom basically copied his set with a few mods, but once I started using the walkthrough, I became enamored with flat sets to the point for several years, they were the only set I used.
And as I kept making them, I got sneakier and sneakier to the point where if I didn't catch a coyote, when pulling I often had to walk around before I could find my set. Subtle would be an understatement. Even my lure holes were invisible.
When I started coyote trapping here in the mid 80s, no coyote had seen a trap (all foothold traps around here in water pre coyote and a few of us not many running land footholds for coon) and the expansion was on and the populations were imo at the peak here.
And for those several years, my flat sets were working as well as my stepdowns did.
fast forward and coyotes were starting to get hunted and harassed here, and even a few trappers started showing up.
So a few things were occurring: the population was diminished at least some, and the coyotes were now getting harassed by people often just on GPs..
And most importantly: The coyotes that had the genetic traits to be caught (and we could debate those), are out of the gene pool.
Similar to bunnies and pheasants. A study in Nebraska on public hunting grounds, showed that over the years, the pheasants were genetically running to escape danger and not flying. simply because those that had the dominate trait of flushing, were being taken out of the gene pool and those few that had the trait to run, were now dominant.
Same with bunnies- some have the trait to be more nocturnal, so the ones that stay in the holes all day, tend to survive and when hunting such places for years, that becomes very noticeable- tons of tracks, but starts are rare vs jumping bunnies constantly with same amount of tracks in prior years.
Coyotes are the same. In any case, I digress but the point goes to why I gave up flatsets.
I was starting to see 2 things- Catching fewer coyotes, and I was starting to get digging at my flat sets (my invisible ones). I couldn't figure out why, because previously it hadn't been a problem. Talking to Wiley one day, he said its probably because they can't see any scent point, so they exploratory dig trying to pinpoint it. Made sense.
So I started making my flat sets with a open wobble holes, but still wasn't catching the numbers, so went back to using a mix of flat sets and stepdowns- often 1 each at a location.
And I started to find a couple of things to be occurring- I was catching coyotes quicker at a location with the visual of the stepdown (which was now evolving into more of a dished stepdown somewhat like I use today) and far more than randomly the coyote was in the stepdown. Logic tells me his first awareness of my sets was visually from the stepdown, and while he was checking things out at least had the opportunity (my sets are pretty close, 20=30 feet is about it and many closer) to check out the flat set, but choose the visual set.
About this time, since I was using rib bones previously at my walkthoughs, I started using bigger bones like skulls and hip bones away from the set .....and saw a definitive bump in success.
So over the years, for several reasons, I've gone back almost exclusively to dirtholes & visuals.
Some years the only flats sets I made was with students, to show them what they were. Two years, had a location where I had 2 bean duff sets in a bottom, between 2 dairies. 1st check, both sets blown out from the back- one I thought had a badger it was so blown out. That happens occasionally with duff sets. So we remade them with a bigger piles of duff- but then I told Lori we might have spooked them some, so lets put in a walkthough. Maybe 25 feet away, up against a bean finger where the ground was dust, and it had a natural walk through to the field side- Two wobble holes, two different lures from what was in the hole, and we were all set. Next day.......a double in the 2 bean duff sets in pouring rain (next location also had a double so that was a blessing/cursed moment as I carried the first two out of the mud to the next, which I thought would be more sheltered (it was not) to find two more so 4 wet muddy coyotes to skin in the rain, but hey! thats what I was out there for lol).
And in the next week- 3 more singletons at the duff set- and the flat set never got a track. I know 1 set doesn't make the rule- but it confirms my belief that coyotes work the visuals more, and population matters with flat sets.
Now....and here is the kicker...... if you rely on flat sets, you MUST be spot on in your settings. And no pun intended. You have to be right there, and you need them to be in the area longer. Wind ro no wind, a coyote can see my skulls from a hell of a distance, the flat set no. On my true "the spot" locations, I have no doubt in the world I could use flat sets, and no visuals with the same success.
Out west is nice for many reasons, the number 1 in my book is unlimited access so setting spot locations is easier, cause you can get to them. Here, a mixed bag. For much of my line, I need the visuals.
I know they can be very effective, but the luster has gone for me with them. The only exception is if I find a dust like old manure pile- its so blendable I can't help myself.
|
|
|
Post by braveheart on Jul 28, 2021 3:58:49 GMT -6
I have a visual at every set.I might have 1 dirt hole but more of a flat set with a bone down in a hole with lure on it. In the winter a piece of sod flipped up side down out in the field. Just get something to stick out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 5:41:40 GMT -6
I usually make 2 set one a walk-thru if the surrounding ground lets a walk-thru fit and than my Disco dirt-hole. The Disco has the fresh dirt kicked of my auger right in front of the hole which provides a visual. The amount of dirt is what would be off a 2" auger drilled down about a foot, not a big pile but very noticable. Making the walk-thru I angle my 1" drill and pull the dirt out and knock it off the drill in front of and sort of on the hole. The hole is only maybe 4"-6" deep so there's not a lot of dirt but a little for a visual aid.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 28, 2021 6:34:56 GMT -6
How many ways to skin a cat......
I never had much success with small, more subtle type dirtholes- indeed, it was one reason I went to flat sets. I remember 1 discussion with Bob and others, where I strongly argued that MY coyotes wouldn't work dirtholes, that I needed flat sets. The stepdown changed that- and I really only started using that after seeing a Leggetts demo and I started making it in what I thought were more fox locations- and after a few years, thought man, for the few I make, I sure catch coyotes in them. The evolution of a trapper......
I've found for me, I have far more success going the non subtle route- using a mataxe to dig/ruff up a decent sized area around the trap- dirt and clods scattered. and lots of smells- 2 lures, 1 commercial bait, 1 gopher (new sets only) and often a call lure up high.
keep in mind that I want to run and gun as much as I can- as a friend once said new places, fresh faces.
|
|
|
Post by braveheart on Jul 29, 2021 4:06:59 GMT -6
I try every day to set in a new place. Bud Hall was a firm believer in that. I am kind of heavy handed with lure or bait.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 9:10:17 GMT -6
What?? No more bait than will fit on the end of a toothpick and 3 carefully measured drops of lure??
|
|
|
Post by braveheart on Jul 30, 2021 3:35:57 GMT -6
Not me I like catching animals.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2021 5:58:01 GMT -6
LOL!
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 30, 2021 7:37:41 GMT -6
So many myths that are out there. The one that slays me is you can't catch a coyote on a backing he can't see over.
Or you need kneeling cloths etc
Sure makes oyu wonder about credibility.....
|
|
|
Post by braveheart on Jul 31, 2021 3:45:29 GMT -6
I know I have been to a few conventions an listen to other guys demo's. They tell some of the phoney stuff I have ever heard. I usually walk away. I stand at a distance to watch an listen. No matter who is doing the demo I think it is rude to get up out of a crowd an leave. It good to have a board that talks about trapping.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2021 5:33:07 GMT -6
LOL! I've only been to two conventions and never attended a demo. Would I get up and walk if I found a reason not to watch someone's demo? I'm already rude, crude, & totally obnoxious, maybe that's why I've never attended one?? LOL
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2021 6:05:55 GMT -6
I’ve watched videos of a friend’s trapping demos, he’s a lure/bait manufacturer and a longliner and on top of that, he’s a good speaker. The one thing that disturbs me is that there are people in the crowd who want to argue with the demonstrator while he’s doing his thing. THAT is the definition for being rude or crude! I don’t think you’re even in the ballpark Marty!
|
|