Lure/Bait Combination Variety Question for Flathead40

[Deleted]

Have you noticed any advantage to changing bait/lure? In other words, If you're using a combination that works good for you, do you see an advantage to using something else JUST because it's different? Only for variety?

No but I do make 2-3 sets at a location, each set with a different combo so there is variety in that manner!  I've kept detailed notes since I started trapping coyotes so at the end of the season I can calculate catch rates by the combo (I use combos) per number of sets where different combos where used.  I had one bait/lure combo be top combo for 7 consecutive seasons.  Because I'm testing every year I have found another combo that pushed the top dog into 2nd position.  I look at the catch ratios hard and if I a particular lure/bait combo can give me a 1:1.2 I'm happy (that is 1 coyote catch per 1.2 sets made).  It can get pretty competitive when I find catch ratios running in 10ths difference such as 1:2.4 or 1:2.6.  Any ratio that approaches 1:2.8-1:3 gets tossed out of the bait bucket.

[Deleted]

FYI! I forgot to recognize a trapper over on Trappenm.com that has been doing some scent testing that from what I've read understands what he's doing and I feel his observations are "on the mark". His handle is Yes Sir. I don't know him at all and only from what I read my experience in testing certainly coincides with his finding and assumptions. I can read the forum but can't post replies. I took myself off the board several years ago because my personality doesn't lend itself to public forums and I'm chancy being on here again.

[trappnman]

I see zero advantage unless all season ADC work.

Ive caught 2 of my collared coyotes the same season, and 2 the following year- with the same lures and baits.

Add in at least here Im thinking 60% or more are juveniles, and I think I recall the average age of our posted collared coyotes when needed, was 2.5 years.

on that 1 to 1.2...whats the timeline, until pulled? Wouldn't trap nights be more accurate?

[Deleted]

I don’t know if trap-nights would be helpful for me. I set on sign and if a coyote only comes back through on the 23rd night what does that really tell me about the catch rate above 1 set made with some combo 1 time. It’s a 1:1 catch rate with that lure. 1 set/1 combo/1 catch. I actually had a set where it took 23 nights for the coyote to come back through and I can assuredly say it was the only coyote to come by that set in that many nights. I don’t see where trap-nights would tell me anything as far as catch rate per combo. The combo used at the set was good because it caught the 1st and only coyote to use that location.

[flathead40]

Trap nights would be valuable for evaluating location, but I can see how set/catch would be for bait/lure combos. If you're set in locations for that long, do you see any difference in " loud" vs. subtle combo?
My philosophy seems to be louder is better for the few weeks I get to go. Also a kind of sweet smell, but not candy sweet. Even if temps are warm I like something loud there

[Deleted]

Well my combos are different to my nose for sure but I can’t really tell sweet. What I have found is that my coyotes like skunk so I add a touch of skunk to all lures (if there is no skunk) as well as my baits. I’m looking for the lift more than enything but the coyotes like it regardless. I have found that some lures lack lift and the coyote almost has to step on the set to smell it. Some are known as flat set lures but not advertised as such and most of that type of lure has little to no lift and a coyote doing 3.4mph trot going by can easily miss it even downwind(found by video) therefore I don’t use them at all but ya gotta know if you got them!

[Deleted]

I do have a lure that is sort of sweet and I can just smell a little castor so I learned to either mix the lure 1/2 x 1/2 with either a strong Carman lure or a strong O’Gorman and it turns a good coyote call lure into a top shelf, strong, call lure

[trappnman]

Im confused. Say you set 10 traps- and caught 5 coyotes at each in 2 weeks, other sets didn't produce- so 1 to 1 on traps set- but only 20% success rate in sets.

Whats that really tell you? If I have to assign success rates, wouldn't it be more accurate as to methods and location success- to either be 1 on 1 with locations- that is every location catches coyotes whether 1 trap or 4...or trap nights which is the criteria I use most-

I remember being told once by 1080 after catching 10 female coyotes in the spring, which astounded me as I thought more males, and asking 1080 what it meant- and he said- it meant you caught 10 female coyotes......

that comment is in effect my mantra......

[flathead40]

Seldom, do you run a lot of traps and leave them set a long time? If so. How does that effect the bait/ lure choice? If you run a few at a time and move is the choice any different?

[Deleted]

My normal MO is to set for 10-14 nights and then move. Some of this is do to deer hunting seasons on private property. 1st 2 weeks of Nov then I pull and move to a heavily wood line on 12/1. This 2nd line allows me to trap State lands and private since most deer hunting is done but I still am not allowed to be on some private until Christmas. I do not run a lot of traps, never did but run even fewer now partly because I don’t have the coyote population I had 10 years prior and I’m just slowing down. I run 3 different lines from 18-24 traps each.of scented sets and no line takes me longer to run not to be home by noon.

There are a couple properties that I can stay longer without causing deer hunting interference and this is where I can leave traps longer. This happens in Dec and I lcan leave traps out for about as long as I want. These are the properties when setting on sign I have waited 20-27 nights for the coyote to come back around but those are not the norm and only stay that long if I’m driving past onto a different line and I’m waiting on deer feeding coyotes to continue their cycle. I’m using good good enough combos I don't refresh the sets and they still score.

Is the choice of combo any different? Nope! My sets do change though. In Nov I use either Marinda's walk-thru and my Disco Dirt hole and from Dec on I only use the walk-thru which has worked great for me from the get-go whether bare, frozen ground or 10”-12” of snow. I used to quit lured & baited sets once the snow got deep enough to trail set which is a method I dearly love and have great success with BUT-BUT for the past 3 years about, I’ve been having trouble finding the trails!!! Not enough coyotes. A trail may be used by 2 coyote or even just 1 but I watch close and wait for a 2nd track to show. I see a 2nd track and that is when I set the trail and it’s a dead coyote. My most enjoyable method of trapping coyote btw.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2021 21:06:11 GMT -6 trappnman said:

Im confused. Say you set 10 traps- and caught 5 coyotes at each in 2 weeks, other sets didn't produce- so 1 to 1 on traps set- but only 20% success rate in sets.

Whats that really tell you? If I have to assign success rates, wouldn't it be more accurate as to methods and location success- to either be 1 on 1 with locations- that is every location catches coyotes whether 1 trap or 4...or trap nights which is the criteria I use most-

I remember being told once by 1080 after catching 10 female coyotes in the spring, which astounded me as I thought more males, and asking 1080 what it meant- and he said- it meant you caught 10 female coyotes......

that comment is in effect my mantra......

This works for me- I make 10 sets using a particular combo and I catch 5 coyotes.  That is 1 coyote per 2 sets made- 1:2.  Another 10 sets made with a different combo and I catch 1 coyote which equals 1:10 catch ratio.  Another 10 sets made with a particular combo and I catch 7 coyote which equals a 1:1.4 catch per set rate.  Of the 3 combos which performed best?  Which combo was the most attractive irregardless of location and time because I don’t pull my punches and use only my best at a location I use multiple sets at a location so I use 2-3 differnt combos.  I make sure that my top producing combo doesn’t get special treatment and stack the deck so to speak with the choicest location to the point I may even have to “force in” a set with another combo.

Too many variables I feel will taint the purpose of the of determining a combo’s attractivness.  I only want to know how many coyote I caught per the number of sets it was used in, nothing more.  This mehod has worked great for me.  Why would I want to use a combo that was only attractive enough to give me 1 coyote out of 10 traps above a combo that gave me 7 coyote from 10 traps?

[trappnman]

ok- that makes sense. I do somewhat the same in testing, but all my testing is w/trap in season.

I look at it differently. Years ago, a discussion occurred with me, Bob, Wiley, etc on what constituted success over time- and the conclusion was that over a season on a longline, the average should be 1 coyote for every 17 trap nights. That is day in and day out rain snow shine etc, at end of it if you average 6-7 coyotes per 100 trap nights, you are doing well.

Success for me isn't specific to lures- that is, if I have 2 combos set, I don't care which catches him first. We kept records for years of lures used, and who made it, and what was caught- and it was so random- no pattern really emerged beyond our standard setting of 2 sets, 1 being skunk and sweet, and the other being either skunk or sweet- and then another type of lure. We do catch 20-25% of our coyotes as doubles.

Our pattern in past was to use 3 baits. All by Marty. All work well. I personally like a cat based bait, and a horsebait- so last couple of years just used those two. I typically buy a large amount of LDC, and a large amount of Magnum Call (sweet) and then multiple other lures. I'm strongly considering reducing that to just 5 lures and make those my standard lures. so 2 base lures so to speak- then 2 baits and 3 other lures, gives multiple combos.

Let me say this- or rather ask this- mike, you have posted that 1 track is the same to you as another- that it doesn't really matter where on that track line you set (within reason I know, a track going by someones front door might not be suitable lol).

That its crucial to know the reactions to baits and lures, to have the best.

so....could it just be the mindset is different, at various points on that trackline?

[Deleted]

Even at the same test location it was obvious coyotes had different mindsets. My test locations were such that most were doing the 3.4mph trot and some were just moseying along at the same test location. If the lure I was testing at the time was a good one I found I could get them to slam on the brakes and come back to the scent maybe 10-12' if they were downwind. If a coyote was on the trot with it's head held high ears forward, I found I could not stop it. Whereas substandard lures wouldn't even stop a slowpoke of have it only hesitate for a moment before moving on and not investigate it or even bolt!.  

Notice in the 2 video clips there is nothing to denote a stall-out, just that the coyote traveled along that route.  Those are the set locations where I catch coyotes.

I do not believe you can compare trap nights from one part of the country to another due to population densities but you can compare catch ratios of scents used.

[trappnman]

I think you can- if setting a lot of traps, you must have a lot of coyotes.

[Griz]

To me catch per trap night ranks trap locations from best to worst. The criterion is also complicated by high population vs low population, population movement within an area resulting in more frequent passage through a location, weather events, and possibly other variables.

And catch per set location ranks scents/baits from best to worst.

For example, in a high coyote population area, a coyote may come through a location every night or two. In a low coyote population, a coyote may come through a location only every 14 days. If a good scent/bait catches the first coyote past the set, 1 catch per two trap nights would occur in the high population area while 1 catch per 14 days would occur in the low population area indicating the high population area is the best location. However, each location would have 1 catch per set indicating the scents are equal.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2021 11:10:26 GMT -6 Griz said:

To me catch per trap night ranks trap locations from best to worst. The criterion is also complicated by high population vs low population, population movement within an area resulting in more frequent passage through a location, weather events, and possibly other variables.

And catch per set location ranks scents/baits from best to worst.

For example, in a high coyote population area, a coyote may come through a location every night or two. In a low coyote population, a coyote may come through a location only every 14 days. If a good scent/bait catches the first coyote past the set, 1 catch per two trap nights would occur in the high population area while 1 catch per 14 days would occur in the low population area indicating the high population area is the best location. However, each location would have 1 catch per set indicating the scents are equal.

Good job Griz!  You said it better than me.

[trappnman]

"For example, in a high coyote population area, a coyote may come through a location every night or two. In a low coyote population, a coyote may come through a location only every 14 days. If a good scent/bait catches the first coyote past the set, 1 catch per two trap nights would occur in the high population area while 1 catch per 14 days would occur in the low population area indicating the high population area is the best location. However, each location would have 1 catch per set indicating the scents are equal."

Now I don't agree with that at all. It has nothing to do with population on individual coyotes- only if trying for numbers, does population come into play. I hear that all the time giving demos- that "my coyotes only come around every couple, three weeks"
and I believe them- and where they are setting traps, I have no doubt that is true.

But lets forget the studies- lets just look at logic in predator behaviors. What the 1st rule of a true predator (and yes the coyote is not that, but still...)? Conserve calories. Don't hunt where there isn't food. Now unless your problem is far too much food, habitat all being equal (somewhat like my hill farms)so everything is literally the same throughout his range- hes not going to just wander endlessly. People say mink wander- and the do- but when the find easy food- they stick around. They don't, on a regular basis, hunt creeks and areas that are unproductive. For example- all my trout streams end up either in the Mississippi, or a small river connected to the Mississippi. Once those creeks come out of the hills, they become very shallow sand bottom, slow creeks- almost dead creeks- but still- they empty into Lake Pepin or the river. And at one time were dynamite coon locations- and I'd set mink trials with 220s and make blind sets, plus the lured coon sets (That take a lot of mink in the right location) and I can count on one had the mink taken on those creeks in the flat sand bottoms on one hand- yet, those same creeks in the hills, produce a lot of mink for me. Mink don't hunt (although they may move through) unproductive waters.

Now- why would a coyote be any different? Is he going to visit barren parts of his range with the same frequency (and damn, thats like the kernel of "the spot") as his productive hunting areas? No. He is not. He spends a disproportionate amount of time in small areas of his range-

if you are setting marginal travel lanes where a track is there every couple of weeks- why set there? that same coyote is going to be present on a relatively small part of his range- set there- and you don't wait weeks.

now- if you have no access, no real coyote properties- then you can't do that. But it simply means you can't make the set up as it should be made, so you settle for what you can, and wait. I have some of those. Wish I had none.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2021 17:25:28 GMT -6 trappnman said:

Now- why would a coyote be any different? Is he going to visit barren parts of his range with the same frequency (and damn, thats like the kernel of "the spot") as his productive hunting areas? No. He is not. He spends a disproportionate amount of time in small areas of his range-

if you are setting marginal travel lanes where a track is there every couple of weeks- why set there? that same coyote is going to be present on a relatively small part of his range- set there- and you don't wait weeks.

now- if you have no access, no real coyote properties- then you can't do that. But it simply means you can't make the set up as it should be made, so you settle for what you can, and wait. I have some of those. Wish I had none.

I don't think in the aspect you described that they are.  I describe this as killing the "homies" that are spending the extra(if you want to call it extra) time.  These are killed quickly 2-5 nights.  So you kill them and then I wait for travelers/dispersals to come through because that small are of range has what the coyotes need, prey.  If I stay beyond the 5 nights, it's because of the draw of the are so I'm there for 13-14 nights and yes, waiting.

If the properties I have are in between the small, choice areas where I have no permission, I have to set the sign on the travel ways.  You do that or stay home!  It's not like every coyote is hung up in a choice prey area all at the same time, there is constant movement to & from somewhere, depending upon when you set in any particular coyotes cycle and this nobody would know.  It's 5 o'clock somewhere so I'm betting on a pass-through during the 14 nights.  

Maybe though, I've set on the sign the coyote left the night before and it may get hung-up somewhere and not come back through for 16 nights, 2 nights after I pull.  If a travel-way is chosen to be used by one coyote it's usually chosen by multiple coyote to use!  To be more specific, dead deer, trimmings, gut piles, etc augment the natural prey making for a longer hangup in a small area. Everything appears to be pretty well cleaned up by early Jan but that's when they start breaking here so it becomes a gamble.

[Deleted]

There’s another facet to this same problem of setting on sign and having to wait an inordinate number of nights than it did some years ago. I feel it has to do with a lower population of coyotes than say 4-5 years ago. As we’ve discussed the traveling between desirable locations and I’m forced to set the travel-ways in many cases because of permissions. I would think that with less competition the coyote’s territorial range would be expanded to include more of the better hunting areas. If a coyote’s territory has expanded it would stand to reason it would take longer for the coyotes to make the circuit back through a property. I really think that this is a logical assumption to part of the reason for the longer cycle time.  Also, along with longer distances and time traveling there would also be longer time spent at the additional hunting locations.

[trappnman]

Wouldn't you think that with smaller populations, that ranges and thus travelling would be less withless mouths to feed?

But I do understand what you mean- I still set some locations like that- where if "lucky" I might have a nearby litter, but mostly its as you said marginal travel lanes. My setting these up isn't for lack of permission, but lack of access. I've been told these are "poke and hope" locations.

But my point is, even in those small properties, or less likely areas- there STILL is going to be places with tracks, that are, because of (call it habitat/stall out/safe zone) circumstances, will not only proportionately spend more time, but (and its ying and yang) you get a "defenses down" so to speak mindset.

We all know a travelling coyote is for the most part single-minded. The study I participated in here, and pretty much every study I've read, states a few things:

1) on an average night, the average coyote travels about 7 miles.

2) this can be 7 cumulative miles in a small area. Or, it can be linear.

One female coyote we had, stayed for several months on the same farm as collarred. One night, she traveled 19 miles- and then was killed by a car.

3) More often that not, the travelling pattern for that night ((locations noted every half hour) was a pattern of 3- A, B, C.

And throughout that night, the coyote would travel randomly it seemed, between those 3 attraction points and then spend time, at those points.

A TO B TO A TO C TO B TO A TO B TO C........etc.

Logic tells me (and 1st hand observation of what those points were in real life) that those A,B,C locations are the stall out points...simply meaning places where they go regular, and spend time. And this is important but often overlooked and is in fact my #1 criteria- is there a reason, for coyotes to come here regular? And will they "putter" about? And in that area, carcasses increase that puttering, and thus, imo, give you a higher overall success rate.

Again, I understand that some just don't have the habitat (more circumstances) to set as one would like, and you do what you do or stay home. I've said similar words to 1080- yes, the location sucks, but what choice do I have.