Braveheart

[trappnman]

bedding the trap- if I give the impression I'm packing for a firm feel to the coyote, I am not.


Why does it matter if the coyote sinks into your sifting 3/4" to your packed dirt or 1.5" of loose dirt because the coyote already has walked through the dirt you spread out which is loose dirt.

it doesn't- I'm only concerned about the hard/to soft factor

[Deleted]

May 29, 2015 8:06:22 GMT -6 trappnman said:

bedding the trap- if I give the impression I'm packing for a firm feel to the coyote, I am not.

That was the question and thanks for the answer and we're on the same page.  These other folks say they are packing for both reasons and it's the "need for a firm/packed pattern" that bothers me as to why do they think they need everything beyond the immediate trap bed firm & packed.  Their explanation when making the sets, they speak in a manner- "as you know, we want the coyote to always step on firm/packed dirt".  That's pretty close to the common quotes.  This "as you know" sort of pisses me off because , no I don't know and further more what they're saying makes no sense to me nor have I ever observed and experienced the need. LOL  Could be just my inquiring mind that leads me to question this sort of thing.

[Deleted]

I don't know why I didn't think about these bait test plot photos I don't know but they show what I've been trying to describe when I talk about how a coyote digs a hole, these holes are a-typical of a coyote diggings.  Now if these actual coyote diggings differ from what other folks have experienced and observed, show me the photos.

Yup, the test holes are in sand and as Steve pointed out in an earlier reply , sand is sweet because it's firm in it's undisturbed state.  That being said though, notice there appears to be no hesitation by the coyote when digging to continually step into the excavated sand which is soft in comparison and of course the coyotes foot sinks in.  It appears by these photos the coyote gives a rat's butt whether it's stepping on firm soil OR loose to me!!!!

Remember, my test holes are 1" diameter, 8" deep, and vertical.

[trappnman]

very typical in the holes I see here digging for mice (actually voles as the study indicates).

Yes, we are on same page, I don't think one needs a hard surface to have coyotes approach the set.

I think maybe those saying so, are coming to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons- ie that if they have hard bed and soft ground, they have problems, but when they pack down the ground (SO IT MATCHES THE TRAP BED)they don't.

[Deleted]

OK, for the sake of a continuing discussion, notice in the 1st & 2nd photos how the coyote dug out the test hole starting from firm sand but stepped in the soft excavated dirt/sand seemingly without hesitation.  Wouldn't it be correct to believe that the next coyote that worked the hole be just as inclined to step from the firm sand into the loose sand?  Even in the rest of the photos it can be seen how the coyotes who came after a rain seem by their tracks unconcerned about stepping into the loose sand that was previously excavated and they stepped down into the area that would be considered a trap bed.  I checked the sites of the last 4 photos 3 days previously but only as a drive-by because I didn'tt have a camera with me and they had been worked and then we had the rain.   It should be pointed out that the rain-on tests received multiple diggings so it wasn't the heaviness of a rain that flattened the excavated sand.  

Using the photos as a recap, if those excavations were turned into some version of a deep, setp-down sets, are you saying, as those in the videos, that all sand would be packed firm both down in the excavation(1st photo is pretty) AND up on top including the excavated sand?

[trappnman]

yes, but the difference is in my opinion that with a trappers dirthole, with exotic scents coming out of a somewhat unnatural looking hole, with something buried in front of hole- is an entirely different situation.

I'm not saying that soft dirt/hard dirt or dark/light is something that coyotes never encounter, or hesitate to walk on during the course of their day.

but I do think that setting up a trap, changes things.

I'm astonished at how my dogs reacts to things he encounters- esp seeing where he is (home, familar ground, unfamilar ground) and how the reactions differ. Each situation is different, and we know that what we see in dogs, is intensified in coyotes. The late 1080 used to say- "remember coyotes are the biggest chickenshites on earth"

I'm like you never, much of my knowledge, or rather educated opinions, comes from observation and cause and effect.

One adage of coyote trapping I've heard, and even repeated, is to make the set look like its been there for 1000 years, or just there yesterday. And I think there is at least some truth in that. I think once we start being "clever", that a coyote instinctively "knows" he needs caution, and that exhibits itslef by being overly cautious of anything that is "not right". Its like this- a coyote comes in to a set- but (for the reasons mentioned before) he gets into chikenshite mode, and everything is suspect- thus, when confronted with a small piece of dirt that is different from the rest of the scene (on which he is already nervous)it doesn't cost him anything to avoid it, so he does. A prime reason why sets with low backings are often worked from the back.

I guess what it all comes down to- is I don't care too much about the consistentcy of the dirt, or the color, or hard or soft- I just want it to all be the SAME.

I've just had too many instances where an obvious bed, is trouble. I cringe when I see pictures of a set i ngrass, with al ittle pie shaped pattern in front of it, and everyone saying good coyote set- cause ot me, its everything a coyote set should NOT be.

whew- lot of thinking to put abstact things into words-

I'm enjoying the discussion- don't be shy about joinig in

[buckfreak]

The late 1080? What happened?

[trappnman]

trying to wake him from the dead...........

[braveheart]

I guess if I bed the trap solid then pat the dirt in solid around the trap then sift and blend in my pattern again and it hardly takes a second or two.And that equals a coyote in a trap or what ever comes by with no misses with the steel screen that what I will keep on doing over and over.Most of my trapping is done in rock hard frozen ground I don't get to trap in unfrozen ground like in those pictures.

[braveheart]

I guess a wobble hole test area is also completely different that a trap being placed.A coyote or a pair comes in an digs at a hole and mills around leaves a pile of tracks at a set in all of the ground be it soft or soft enough to leave a track.I don't trap tracks I want the animal that makes the tracks.The animals if walks on my trap area better come home with me.

[Deleted]

May 30, 2015 4:31:59 GMT -6 braveheart said:

I guess if I bed the trap solid then pat the dirt in solid around the trap then sift and blend in my pattern again and it hardly takes a second or two.And that equals a coyote in a trap or what ever comes by with no misses with the steel screen that what I will keep on doing over and over.Most of my trapping is done in rock hard frozen ground I don't get to trap in unfrozen ground like in those pictures.

Those are bait/scent test plots as I described.  I test twice a year, once in early spring and the other in very late summer/early fall.  Those photos were in late summer.

If you were to make your dirt hole set out of any and all of the tests you see, would you pat firm all of the dirt that is loose or disturbed dirt down in the excavation AND up on top(all loose dirt) or are you saying you just pack/bed the trap and then sift over?  It sounds as though you're firming beyond just around the bedded trap. 

You're not the only one who deals with frozen ground.LOL  Depending on snow cover, there are times I can't reach the bottom of the frozen ground with a 12" concrete drill in order to drive my pogo's but those locations now are few and far in between anymore.  That's just another reason to follow the coyotes and get out of the fields and into the woods/brush where the snow cover stays fluffy and the ground remains relatively unfrozen and the coyotes are there, not out in the barren, plowed fields.

[Deleted]

May 30, 2015 4:57:39 GMT -6 braveheart said:

I guess a wobble hole test area is also completely different that a trap being placed.A coyote or a pair comes in an digs at a hole and mills around leaves a pile of tracks at a set in all of the ground be it soft or soft enough to leave a track.I don't trap tracks I want the animal that makes the tracks.The animals if walks on my trap area better come home with me.

I totally and absolutely disagree!!  I use these very size holes for my walk-thru AND coyote come home with me as well!!  No, what you're seeing in those photos is exactly how a coyote works a scent in the ground and there is no denying that and no spinning that either. Isn't a dirt hole set suppose to mimic an anaimal's diggings such as a coyote's???  Every photo shows EXACTLY how a coyote(s) work a below ground scent!  I don't give coyotes chance to work my scents, nobody trapping should because before that happens they're suppose to be in the trap, what you're seeing is just what it is, a worked scent without a trap.  You can see the foot placements in relation to the source of the scent which you'll never or should never see at a "trapped" set if you did what you're suppose to do.

No, these are photos of 'coyote-worked" scent locations and in my experince and observation look no different then if they were digging after the scent of a vole.  Furthermore, if you go back and observe pulled sets from the fall in the spring you'll see the same thing if a coyote has worked the set after the trap was removed.

What I'm after in the discussion is to hear folk's reasonings, find out about this "all dirt packed/firmed" beyond the bedding, loose dirt-fim dirt relationship bothering/affecting approach of the coyotes, and find out if folk's are being subjective or objective in their thinkings or possibly "listening to those of the greatest magnitde" rather than using their own observations.  As Steve previously mentioned, some folks come to a correct(depending on an opinion) conclusion for the wrong reason.  Trapping is loaded with "those who say it to the greatest magnitude" and because THEY SAID IT doesn't mean I believe it according to my experiences and observations.  

[trappnman]

I think what marty is saying, is that at a trap set, coyotes don't get the chance to mill around-

I do know, that on frozen in sets (yes, I still get them!)you do see that milling around.

I'll take the camera with me (and now that I want a pic I won't see what I want) of coyotes digging at a gopher set. two keys n a gopher set- #1 there is something there they WANT and #2 its fastened down (making it somewhat unobtainable)

while i'm on te gopher thought- I'l lget a coyote or a pair of tem work a field at times, where I'll have 5-6 in one field dug up and the gophers eaten, and often sets where they dig up the trap before a gopher works- obviously since the trap reeks of gopher. No avoidance of a thing. So I've got a rusty and/or WD40 smelling trap, a white or orange pole, with multiple strips of flagging tape on the top, where I've kneeling, sweating, and digging at the hole mostly with bare hands.

now THAT is telling me something- at times it seems clear, at others not so much

[braveheart]

I am always checking coyote movement.I am still doing damage work on beaver and in the damp ground watching tracks as they dig and move around.If the snow gets to deep I set mostly bale sets or am lucky to able to run snares.I just think a lot of trapping is over thinking.If that work for you to leave all loose dirt go for it for me I like it pack tight around my trap area then sifted over and blended to each their own.Working dirt hole in blowing drifting snow is a waste of time if can find a wind blown area and a good draw station will hurt the coyote they work those set ups hard.

[Deleted]

May 31, 2015 4:49:03 GMT -6 braveheart said:

I just think a lot of trapping is over thinking.If that work for you to leave all loose dirt go for it for me I like it pack tight around my trap area then sifted over and blended to each their own.

LOL  My questioning has nothing to do with what I do!  It has to do with why you and others do something that is different from what a coyote normally encounters and makes for themselves.  Other than the act of bedding the trap, it's obvious by the photos in a coyote's natural state of working a scent, there is no packed dirt !  Maybe not you personally but the phrase "over thinking" is used a lot with trapping and welding when folks can't give an objective answer to why they do something.  That's when talking trapping or talking welding and folks are pressed for answers questioning why or how something is done the answer more often than not will be "just do what I do and you'll do fine".  In other words, they don't know why or how, all they know is that it works for them and THAT is enough for them to know but not for me or I wouldn't ask!  I've never argued during this discussion whether it's right, wrong, or in between, packing the devil out of the set, I only care to know why others do it because it seems to becoming more prominent in videos I've been seeing.

But let's shift gears a little and talk about when the coyote puts it's foot down.  As observed in the 1st photo there is one very obvious print down on the slope of the excavation.  Forget about the soft dirt it made that print in, think about that as just trap covering.  If there were a trap pan there we'd undoubtably catch that coyote, would it have made a difference if the whole set, all of the underlying ground, was packed firm?  Obviously NOT!  The coyote didn't step anywhere else except in that one spot to work the set or stick it's nose in tight.  So, you could pack the poop out of every thing at the set and what difference would or did that make to the coyote here?  Nothing!  It only made one step without extra guiding!  In all of the photos the coyotes came from firm ground(virgin soil on either side of set) to soft ground(excavated soil in front to set) and onto soft ground down in the excavation where if there had been a trap they'd been caught.

Oops!  Lagging memory recall alert!  Back to the anology of trapping and welding in relation to "over thinking".  I recall visiting a fab shop in the southeast where they had inhouse welding training.  As I was in the training area to meet the instructor and lookover the school a student(employee) asked the instructor a question about the technique of why he had to hold the edges of the joint capping an overhead weld and the instructor did the "do it like I showed you and you'll do fine".  I told the instructor after the student walked away that if he were working for me I'd F-N fire him for answering a question like that!  The same would hold true for me if I were paying for trapping instructions and I ask the trapper a question and he gave me a similar answer of "do it like I do and you'll do fine" or "don't over-think it", I'd ask for my frigin $$ back and leave!!

It appears this discussion has been pretty much run it's course so I'm done.

[braveheart]

So when I dig a dirt hole I use a Madax dig from three side to get my trap bead.I clean it out pack the edges down of my trap bed because usually edges are all heaved up.Then sift dirt in hole and trap and at a angle like the coyote in the scent station you made.Once dirt is sifted over trap I throw dirt on with my hand and blend from the outside if possible.

[Deleted]

Jun 1, 2015 3:40:50 GMT -6 braveheart said:

So when I dig a dirt hole I use a Madax dig from three side to get my trap bead.I clean it out pack the edges down of my trap bed because usually edges are all heaved up.Then sift dirt in hole and trap and at a angle like the coyote in the scent station you made.Once dirt is sifted over trap I throw dirt on with my hand and blend from the outside if possible.

There we are!  That is exactly, right down to the hand throwing, is also my system for making a deep, step-down dirt hole set!  My walk-thru's are completely blended vs the rough-finish of my dirt holes.  Our "system" for making our sets differs from what I've recently been seeing of others with their exuberant(search for a better word) amount of packing and the reason for my questions.

[trappnman]