loop two

[trappnman]

the differences are stark TC-

#1- the draws in SD and out west, are nothing like the coulees. Its rather unique to upper Mississippi

#2 what surrounds your draws, and what surrounds my coulees are quite different

but rather than get bogged down in unimportant details- my bottomline is this- will coyotes overlap territory on a REGULAR basis, without a reason to do so- and I believe- no, they do not.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman an the reasons are there we just need to find them really............

You have a certain percentage of coyotes that are solitary critters and you have a bigger percentage that are a family group type coyotes those groups get loose in the fall time but if the opportunity is called for they can gather and hunt for larger prey.

Either way come fall, territory defense is at all time low so many of those solitary and broken up den coyotes are in the same areas, they have expanded their range in the territory and the young pups are out searching the world over, there will be communal areas that the majority will seek out, will it be as good as other spots? lots depends on habitat, overall densities of coyotes, etc but those same areas will be there that will garner the majority in a given area.

How are your coulees along the Mississippi different than what I call draws along the Cheyenne or Grand rivers of western SD. If anything I had more wide open spaces, but I could imagine if I put hard wood timber on them they would look very similar or not?

[trappincoyotes39]

My philosophy was to look at a larger area of ground and start throwing out the places coyotes would not NEED or want to go through or to, that always helped me cut down on the areas of interest and keep me from over thinking things as times.

Even in the suburbs of Chicago one can see those coyotes tend to migrate and seek out the same areas, those areas if we click on the topps give a great break down as to where and why they are where the dots show the heaviest amount of traffic and the closest over lap spots.

[trappnman]

TC- you are getting off the point= and that point is REGULAR TERRITORY OVERLAP

not occasionally walking by the same bush-

and to have regular territory overlap, you need a reason, a real reason or attraction that causes this to occur yesterday, tonite and tomorrow- not last week, next week, maybe.

I've traveled the west to a limited degree, and have never seen anything close to our area-
heres a link-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area

but more important than the sheer limestone bluffs, and deep valleys- its whats on the FLATS above the coulees

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman my point is this and is on topic if a study can show overlap in the suburbs of Chicago why wouldn't there be such in the coulees of SE Minn?

The point is on topic meaning coyotes are coyotes even in larger metro areas they still seek out communal areas and search for and find the same features they do in the country.

So if the densities are relatively the same what holds those coyotes in the coulees in the first place? That is my question I would ask my self if trapping in such an area.

I trapped those areas you have in NE Iowa many years ago the coyotes really started to fill in and for me finding those spots was clear cuts done in the timber and the slab piles left over.

It talked to my relatives that still hunt those areas for deer and they say the coyotes are super thick as well, very few rabbits in NE Iowa in that terrain they are more dependant on deer, turkeys and rodents. In fact the last year I deer hunted there was when I was 20 or so and if we did not hang the deer up high in a tree we had coyotes come in at night right out side the camper and eat the hind quarters out of those deer.

[trappnman]

food, habitat, physical boundaries

-------------------


I've read and reread the cook study both today and several times in the past.

I seem to be missing any points you think show regular overlap- point them out to me

again, overlap for the purposes I'm discussing means regular and substained use by multiple groups.

Cook is apples and oranges to rural coyotes insofar as territory size, and thats directly related to available habitat

[trappnman]

again, overlap doesn't mean, for the purposes of the discussion we have been having for years, walking down the same path occasionally.

overlap is, for all practical purposes, food related IMHO

the larger the attraction, the more the overlap

[trappincoyotes39]

Food related or habitat and topo related? Areas where even a city coyote feels secure and so called safe and frequents much of the time.

Tman the one topo with the yellow lines shows the over laps there and the other shows the GPS points of coyotes from each group and where they spend a bulk of the time. These areas are not hit and miss IMO.

[trappnman]

habitat related only in areas of minimum habitat

certainly NOT the concern here- the concern here- is TOO MUCH habitat

so with equal unlimited habitat (and not sage desert/badland habitat but food filled habitat) (did you look at the link I posted on the driftless area?) there is no reason for solitary animals or groups, to overlap on a REGULAR basis

3 cow vs 50 cow study sums it up quite nicely

did you read where "the smaller the normal prey, the more solitary coyotes are"?

#1 prey here - voles.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman smaller the prey the more solitary coyotes are? depends on how much prey base their is,a study in Webb country Texas which has some of the highest coyote densities known to man showed a high social interaction between coyotes due to abundant food sources, the down fall was reproduction wained due to the fact that many young coyote never ovulated in their first year and it was primarly left up to older adults to do the breeding.

In other areas coyotes are more solitary until the need a rises to take down larger prey or converge on early spring calves come March . The solitary goes out the window.

Texas, Kansas has some of the highest coyote densities known to man and much of them are smaller prey base feeders.


www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/95pubs/95-70.pdf

[trappnman]

you lost me- what point are you trying to make from that study? be specific with quotes- because nothing you have posted, refutes anything I've said

seems pretty simple-

you have 10 dead cows- groups

you have a vole- 1 mouth

[trappnman]

lets cut to the chase-

the only point I am trying to make, in this very singular instances of a vast network of coulees (and the key point there, rough, heavy cover, unaccessable by man on any reasonable basis), surrounded by countless small farms and small amounts of cows, a dead one rarely, small manure piles, etc

in such a situation, there is nothing that demands, or requires coyotes to share overlap.

if you got a plateful of cookies on yoru table, why go to the neighbors to steal one?

[trappincoyotes39]

But your know where all,those cookies are if you have been offered and ate them correct?

The point was in the Texas study read the introduction and see they found these high density coyotes with lots of small prey base to be more socially interactive than solitary.

Coyotes all have the same behaviors even if they in the suburbs of Chicago or KC which I have seen dead on roads inside of such areas they use the dead zones to go to and from and congregate in these areas, it is a built in survival instinct. No manure piles or dead cows in areas like Chicago or KC yet they still seem to thrive and they do so by having the same basic makeups "needs" they will search out and gravitate to. Built into any coyote.

vast coulees or vast draws of SD, vast timber areas of southern Missouri, broken habitat etc one can change the landscapes but the instincts of coyotes remain the same.

With out that built in behavioral instinct they wouldn't be what they are.

[trappnman]

their innate behavior is to NOT interact with other groups

even in overlap- they aren't there at same time

the only reason overlap is important, because the attraction that causes it is so great, they overcome their territorial behaviors for the greater benefit

if you don't agree with that, we will agree to disagree as I can't say it any plainer, or in new words- it is what it is

[trappincoyotes39]

Good enough.