For sake of discussion

[Deleted]

I was thumbing through a coyote trapping book today that I hadn't looked at in some years and came across these two sentences.-

"You must realize that when you have coyotes coming into your trap sets, you're going to catch the diggers, which I guesstimate at about 20%. Unless you set up to catch the urinators, you'll have a very difficult time catching the 80% who squit and run."

How do you folks feel toward this philosophy?

[trappincoyotes39]

How the heck do you pre determine the digger from the pisser

It is the offering and set used that makes the difference along with where your setting and time of year.

If your using a dirt hole then your looking for a attractor that elicits a digging response from the majority of coyotes working the set.

Don't know where the 20 percent figures in as diggers ? as a bulk of your fall coyotes are going to be that years litter which are suckers for a dirt hole.

[Deleted]

LMAO!! The only reference to your question TC was it was inherent to coyotes to do that whereas fox dig. I got to thinking that everybody digging dirtholes were making "inverted" belly-button piss posts but who am I? LMAO! I could be blind but with all of the scent testing I've done over the years I never figured 4 out of every 5 coyotes stood back waiting for the 1 out of 5 to finish digging so they could take a good piss!!! LMAO

The person who wrote this book does not have a fly-by-night reputation and is generally thought of a an experienced and knowledgable coyote trapper. I must have missed or forgot that paragraph when I read the book some years ago.

[trappincoyotes39]

All coyotes pee as do all other critters and humans,, the point being let them pee all they want as long as your enticing the majority to work a set wanting to dig at or dig out something thing they NEED to have..........

Like a getter no good to have a bait unless it elicits a bite/pull response what makes a great bait for a hole set can be bad on a getter. Once had a few set on a ranch just full of coyote hair they rubbed the crap out of those getters never did pull them, thought DH sets and traps those coyotes would have been mine much quicker.

Once had a big male coming to a call on a denning deal I watched him stop and mark 5 times on the way in, Let him pee all he wants he was just doing what he does but the bottom line the offering is what ended up killing him, not if he stopped to pee 5 times or not.

Adults will do so more than juvenile coyotes, like a dog at a fire hydrant they all stop to pee who cares as long as I can entice them to work the set. Also if your setting to maximize catch then your setting in areas that coincide where a higher rate of scent marking IE peeing takes place any how, again make it a spot that affords them time and use a good bait lure that elicits a good response .

[trappnman]

"You must realize that when you have coyotes coming into your trap sets, you're going to catch the diggers, which I guesstimate at about 20%. Unless you set up to catch the urinators, you'll have a very difficult time catching the 80% who squirt and run."


I would have to then think, that if he considers 80% of the coyotes to be non diggers, he is also then concluding that you will be missing those 80% UNLESS you are making sets, that utilize that peeing action, and I'd conclude those must be scentpost type sets.

and from both my experiences, and from the research I've read, its my opinion that scent post sets, are a low % set for multiple reasons- mostly who scent marks and when> And how I guess. In any case, all add up to very low %.

I'm convinced (and yes flat sets work) that hole sets ARE the silver bullet if you will in baited/lured sets- and that the right hole set, WILL take the majority of coyotes the majority of times. and I'm still reading how too much lure/bait is detrimental, and again, just don't see it.

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2014 7:23:58 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I would have to then think, that if he considers 80% of the coyotes to be non diggers, he is also then concluding that you will be missing those 80% UNLESS you are making sets, that utilize that peeing action, and I'd conclude those must be scentpost type sets.

and from both my experiences, and from the research I've read, its my opinion that scent post sets, are a low % set for multiple reasons- mostly who scent marks and when> And how I guess. In any case, all add up to very low %. .

His "go to" set is actually a walk-thru set very similar to yours and mine but he also uses a piss post set quite often(as I noted in a video of his).. His opinion as I read it, why the walk-thru works so well over the dirt hole is it allows easy and natural access in and out of the set so the coyote can get a sniff and squirt and be on it's way.  So in his phyilosophy, the scent only needs to  grab the coyote's attention for a sniff rather then to jack-up the coyote's desire to find out/investige by wanting to dig(how else can the coyote find out) what smells so good down the hole.

[Deleted]

I started this thread to get some discussion going about philosophies after I read the particular excerpt because it seemed so different then other, experienced trapper's philosophies. So I'll relate an experience that on the surface appears to coincide with the quote in the starter thread.
Several years ago I started using more urine with my walk-thrus. I'd give a real good shot of coyote urine on the backing and mist the daylights out of the set and area with red fox urine. That year I had about a 30% hindfoot catch rate on the coyotes and 0% on the fox!! I have NEVER had that high of rate of hindfoot catches before OR since!

! The next year I did everything the same (I thought) and never had a hindfoot catch!! Go figure!! My urine, lures, and baits have not changed to any real degree and those sets with the hindfoot catches, I had not changed any lure/bait scent, I changed the amount of urine and that was it. Lots of hindfoot catches with my walk-thru THAT year and that year ONLY! So what did I do? Did I somehow stumble upon a facet of the set that possibly reenforced or built the auther's belief from his experiences and observations to be fact? That the coyote sniff & piss and they don't dig, could be, it'd be easy to come to some kind of a conclusion, if in your own mind, decided it to be fact and based on his experience.

So, is there really a squewd philosophy OR is there just more facets of philosophies we encounter that build folks beliefs/viewpoints in such a manner to be thought of as fact and/or as fiction in the eyes of others?

[trappnman]

you know I like a walkthrough.....

but (always a but) I do not think it has as much universal appeal as a dirthole- I'm not going to say big dirthole- but I will add big patterned dirthole.

since my goal is to be in and out quick, I don't have time to let coyotes find my sets and to work them- aka like a mink blind set, no action for weeks, than a hit.

it always comes down to me- what % of the coyotes that are aware of your set, work them? What % are aware- but don't care, don't even want a sniff.

I understand your winter trapping Never is a different story, but I'd like your thoughts on the above

[Deleted]

Though there is a serious lack of visual stimuli of the walk-thru, in itself is a double-edge blade because the lack of it also offers nothing to cause a neophobic reaction to the coyote. As you remember that one study about neophobic reactions to visual and scent stimuli. What I've found to be a serious detrement to my using the walk-thru is finding the "right" spot for the set!! Sure, I have many locations where I can easily pick out where I want the trap in regards to the wind and the coyote's travelway, it's when I don't, I tend to force the issue which is always a bad choice for me! There is nothing quick about the walk-thru IF you have to search for the "right" spot.

Thereis one other detrement with the set is how easy and quick is it to blend in a walk-thru when everything is wet. Simple and easy when things are dry but not so when everything is wet. What I have been doing with success is rather me blending the set in to the surroundings, I've learned to blend everything in the area to the set. I'm not trying to be clever, I'm saying when you bury a trap in wet ground, you'd better make everything look like it!  Reverse blending so to speak.

Trying to answer your last question about how many. I go to maybe extremes finding/searching for the right scent and I work just as hard making sure that I'm on the coyote.  Probably different than most folks, I'm retired so I can spend the time.  Those things I can control, I strive to lock them down. I can't control the wind or the coyote's thoughts but I try to slap them alongside their heads and point them at the set. Where I can see, I seldom have coyotes stand back from my sets like with the pipe tests UNLESS I've screwed-up or UNLESS I've got an educated adult coyote similar to one male last year. He would not allow the rest of the family near any of my sets. It was clearly obvious by the sign and I remembered the previous year where I'd killed 6 coyotes of a family and the big male I didn't. I caught him last year and his family in snow trail sets. No scents!
I had a property which was a sand pit-type property in the woods. Every year the piles of sand would be covered with pup tracks and there'd be coyote runways going from one pit to another(runways being more heavily used then trails) The old female would take family out as soon as I set traps and caught one pup, so she avoided my walk-thrus and wouldn't allow any pup near them(near the scent)I could only catch any numbers by never setting a scented set, I had to use strictly trail sets. Though I'd quickly catch several, she'd still take everyone away and not return for at least 12 nights.
(length of time I was there)  

Some years ago I stated that my walk-thru out caught my deep, step-down dirt holes by 4 to 1 and that is very true BUT the problem was my dirt hole visuals because I was using the same scents.  The coyote WOULD stand back or swing wide around the sets and many times I could see that the same coyote would go directly to the walk-thru and there it's be waiting! (expanses of sand/weed mix-easy tracking).  My deep, step-down set was a spinoff of a couple of different eastern trappers that started out fox trapping.    In fact, my first coyotes I ever caught were caught in those sets for MSU and my first catch was a double but it took a number of nights before the two sets hooked-up.  As I gained experience I could see there was too small  and too sharp-edged of a pattern which didn't blend/merdge into the surroundings properly as I now understand better.



The past couple of years I've worked to improve the visuals of my own redition of a deep, step-down set and I believe I've got it now so that I'll be incorperating upwards to 1/2 of my sets this year. The reason why I didn't change sooner and get serious about adding the set is because I was in my comfort zone with the walk-thru and if it feels good, still does but I'll be more efficent if I can use another set that is as versatile as the deep, step-down and that will offer me the visual stimuli that my walk-thru lacks.

[Deleted]

Remember a previous post I made with a video of a double on snow? Well those two coyotes, both males and one was old had came through almost in the same direction as my truck. They dicked around just upwind and then continued heading in a direction that took them just downwindof my two sets about 12'-15' away and the sets were snow covered with about 1". Both coyotes paused, not stopped but paused by their tracks and continued on their way. As I said, Ihave no idea why they didn't jump in or why they wanted to leave but there wasn't a single visual clue those sets/traps were there. I figured they'd now found the scents and would be back. They came back 5 nights later using the same route except they went right to the upwind set where I caught the old one and the young one was in the downwind set.

These walk-thru sets were under 3"-4" of snow with only snow-covered dirt clods for a backing(making a snow hump about 3" above the set's snow cover).  AND, I'll never know if they were pissing on my sets and got caught or were trying to dig into them. LOL  


What we do know is that coyotes have inherent tendencies but we don't know what is in their minds at any one point in time that controls by jacking up or dampening down those inherent tendencies!!!!  At least I don't!

[aaroncurtis]

I am still curious as to how he surmised that only 20% of coyotes want to actively dig at the set.

[Deleted]

OK, I got the book back out and here is the quote-
"In fact, I've conducted population density studies in my education background and learned a great deal from it, so thank you for the taxes you paid that went into grants spent to study the canines at the university level. Information learned from videotaping canines as they approached scented stations has been invaluable."

"What about coyotes that were recorded and watched who visitied the sets?  Did they do the foxy shuffle and dig and poop and circle and circle?  Nope.  Let me repeat that because it's the foundation of my whole book and the methods in it.  Heck, it's actually the whole foundation for how I trap coyotes in numbers."

[aaroncurtis]

Sounds like his video evidence was the basis for that 20% figure. Seems low to me considering the # of pup coyotes vs the # of adults. So dos this mean 80% of coyotes like the challenge of catching their "fast food" instead of stealing someone else?

[trappnman]

I'm getting, I think, a glimmer of who you are talking about

so his premise, is that only 20% of coyotes have that digging response. And this is based on both his personal observations, and his conclusions regarding scent station visits. And because he holds that premise to be true, he further concludes that one is missing that 80% of coyotes that have, in his opinion, no real inclination to dig.

What do I think about that?

GIGO

2 flaws in the "facts"

1) scent stations, are not properly set up dirtholes. I can only speak of here in how its down, and its by taking a white tablet about the size of a alka zelzer, that has a pungent odor on them, and these are place in on the ground where they expect coyotes to be. some places might make holes, but here, no. Comparing that, to a dirthole filled with goodies, is comparing day to night.

2) if one is in a mindset that quantities of lure/urine/bait are counterproductive, and uses such seldom or never ((lol sorry about that but its what I want to say)than any conclusions about coyotes wanting or not wanting to dig (and even that is skewed)is based on limted and perhaps moot data.

skewed, because digging response perhaps isn't the right word, nor an inclusive word- lets substitute "willing to check out dirtholes"

I can say this about my own experiences, once I had some coyote success-

I evolved to using almost all flat sets- why was easy- they were producing for me. Heck, I even debated on the forums, how "hole sets just didn't work for me" and how flat sets were my only consistent producers.

Then I started using a step down, tweaked it to where it was becoming a good producer, and that evolved (esp in last 5 years)into my present type of lets say a sloped, big patterned semi stepdown- to the point where I make very few flat sets or walk throughs anymore- usually just saving them for old manure piles, etc- places where even a blind man could blend a set in perfectly and the reason isn't so much I need a flat set/walkthrough there, its just I still like making and catching coyotes in flats sets.

but the reason I make so few is simple- my dirtholes have evolved to where the flat out produce, and they produce immediately.

heres another thought- it seems to be the conclusion by most on the internet, that the best night of coyote trapping is day 5 or 6 on a line- and back when I had a different mindset about locations, and sets- I pretty much agreed with that- a line would be a coyote or two for 4-5 days, than a couple of better days, then 1 or 2

now- my best days are in chronological order... that is day 1 after all traps out is best day, next day is 2nd best day, etc

The past couple of years I've worked to improve the visuals of my own redition of a deep, step-down set and I believe I've got it now so that I'll be incorperating upwards to 1/2 of my sets this year. The reason why I didn't change sooner and get serious about adding the set is because I was in my comfort zone with the walk-thru and if it feels good, still does but I'll be more efficent if I can use another set that is as versatile as the deep, step-down and that will offer me the visual stimuli that my walk-thru lacks.

exactly

[Deleted]

Oct 11, 2014 6:45:20 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I'm getting, I think, a glimmer of who you are talking about

so his premise, is that only 20% of coyotes have that digging response. And this is based on both his personal observations, and his conclusions regarding scent station visits. And because he holds that premise to be true, he further concludes that one is missing that 80% of coyotes that have, in his opinion, no real inclination to dig.

What do I think about that?

br]

[ Yup, you've got it and that's exactly how I took it. I also agree completely with your two comments as well.

Here's an old quote by 1080 that has sort of stuck with me. Part of this quote probably doesn't apply BUT part of it does I feel.
"that sign reading and coyote behavior become paramount to someone trapping.I have mentioned to read studies,if for no other reason,(as Knowlton always told me) look for the similarities in behavior from study to study,don`t focus on all the differences,as there are a million and can get confusing if a guy dwells on that.Use them as a common thread for coyote behavior.Worry about the dissimilarities after the innate behaviors are completely understood.Time afield is paramount to fitting the pieces of the puzzle together."