Pipe versus dirtholes

[blackhammer]

Really like the way Zagman has incorporated several ideas into making his pipe set. The pipe part of it unless you like digging or want to change things up, is it a idea will make dirtholes somewhat obsolete? The grass or haylage type freeze proofing to me makes a lot of sense. I think while many use pipes water coon trapping but on dryland it would seem to be the ticket for coon. It would sure cut down flipping traps at dirthole with that bait up higher in a pipe . I don't consider dirtholes a great coon set. I run a few fox sets when dryland coon trapping and I'm thinking about going to a bunch of pipes. Will pipes cut down on canines working sets from the back or sides or would there be little differance? I know one thing they won't steal the lure stick or bait very easy like I've seen fox do once in awhile.

[trappnman]

pipes work well for coon- I've used them for 20 years and more. I like to make them directional by placing the pipe in at a 45 degree angle, with the trap inner jaw right under the lip of the pipe. having pipe cut at an angle with longer side on top keeps rain out- but makes it tougher to set so I use flat piece to make pilot hole. Having said that, I think dirtholes outproduce pipes, but how much would depend on populations. I like dirtholes because I feel it gives me more fox

I do consider dirtholes a great coon set- big flashy stand out and scream come see! come see! work very well for me

[blackhammer]

I think the dirthole attracts coon very well. The trap placement I think makes snapped and flipped traps more likely. So trapperman you are not ready to set pipes for coyotes?

[Deleted]

Holy sweet Jesus Blackhammer! If you get Steve to give a positive acknowledgment to your question there's liable to be aall kinds of glass breaking in New York State due to sudden and unexplained seismic activity!! LMAO

[trappnman]

the secret to not having snapped and flipped traps is quit simple- I use the Gary Armstrong guide stick at every coon set I make, land or water. I read about it 30 years ago in his book, and didn't use it for several years after that, thinking it would have little if any effect- and once I started using it I was flabbergasted by it's success. Ran into Gary a few years after that, told him and he looked at me and said "day and night isn't it?"

and I could not agree more- it truly was as different as day and night in reducing/eliminating snapped/flipped traps. for those not aware of it, it is to take a pencil sized stick, place it in the ground so 3-4" are sticking out of ground, at the outside of the jaw, tucked in tight against the dog.

another trick is loose dirt in a broad pattern before the dirthole, and also it's a MUST to make sure a coon cannot reach the bait/lure from the side or back of hole (thus me using logs as reverse stepdowns so to speak).

my personal opinion on pipes for coyotes(and I've been catching the odd coyote for decades in coon pipes) is that they are a gimmick set, and do not appeal to the majority of coyotes the majority of time, and that if they are outproducing a hole set, then the mechanics of the hole set need to be reexamined.

grass & clippings is nothing new, its been in most old method books including Stanley Hawbeakers classic Trapping north American furbearers. and works good if you are of the school that subtle sets work best- I believe just the opposite (and this coming from someone that used to run 75% or better "invisible" flat sets.

I DO feel the ground trembling Never......

[primitiveman]

Have to agree with Tman on this....not saying it won't work, but I wouldn't put my life savings into pvc stock any time soon.

[Aaron.F]

I use Zagger's pipe set last year with good results and am planning on using it more this year. I have difficulties catching coyotes in dirtholes around here, I probably do need to reavaluate my dirt holes.

[primitiveman]

For me, it's not a matter of pipes not working (sounds like plenty have had some success with'em)...I just don't want to tote around a pile of pvc pipe if I don't need to. My other sets produce consistently, so I haven't had the need to develop another set type.

[trappnman]

the reason I made mostly flat sets, was I had trouble catching them in the dirtholes I was using at the time- flat sets simply outproduced my hole sets.

getting away from fox type setups, and making coyote type dirtholes , changed all that- I don't make more than 2-3 sets a year, that aren't bigger type hole sets and bigger meaning not so much the hole (thats standard auger sized) but the pattern and surrounding area.

the goal should be to catch the most coyotes, in the shortest time- and we are back to research and what appeals to a coyote and where its presented

[Deleted]

Well with the length of thread on Tman and this little one started by Arron I thought I'd do some testing as most on here understanf I ALWAYS test before I use anything on my lines. I had some scrap 1" pvc out back so I cut some pieces and chose for my scent a food-type lure I'd used quit using maybe 5 years ago. The lure performed well enough so I was comfortable that I was using a tried and true scent.

I set 5 pipes, 3 at locations where I had not caught a coyote previously and in clay ground where there was no visable sign, only by experience did I set in those locations. I also made set patterns at those locations the best I could with the heavy clay ground. The other 2 were placed ON SIGN on property I have caught numerous coyotes and where I'll be setting in another few weeks. The last 2 were on locations were on sand and where sign showed out from the pipes by at least 15'. The pipes were left 5 nights and I had to check them because rain was forcast.

The 3 pipes first described were licked clean with no tooth marks on the pipes. Sign was dicicult to decifer but it appeared to be all opossum and coon. The other 2 in sand were found by coyote BUT the coyote refused to come within 10' of either pipe! They appeared to do a little pacing but did not commit to a closer evaluation of the scented pipes. The pipes had not been worked by anything else so I left them as they were.

Previously, in the spring, I tested a homemade bait and another lure on a property where I've trapped for some years with very good success. I made a deep, step-down /trench set with the two scents and at each location I set two pipes in a manner of a walk-thru set. After 3 nights both dirt holes were dug out like crazy BUT the pipes, even though they were not more then 12' away recieved NO attention. NONE!!!  In fact, they recieved no attention even a week later!!!

Now I'm sure these pipe sets work for some but I believe there are specifc conditions needed for that to occur.
One condition could be as described in one of the studies that address neophobic reactions to visual stimuli in familar territory.
Another thought is that if the pipes are set some period of time before being scented that the coyotes would get used to seeing them.(again, as per the one study, sort of akin to prebaiting except it's more of pre-visual)
Another could be that the coyotes are transit and don't recognize the pipes as being unusual(as in the study as well).
Another could be a higher density of population and something to do with competition.
I do not know the answer but I hope all my competition and I've got a bunch, uses pipes this year!!!

There is always a reason WHY!

[trappnman]

thanks for sharing that never-

your results reflect my thoughts on how pipes would work as a go to type set. I too would think that I nhigher densitys, food type baits would get more attention-

but just like some say post sets are the silver bullet type of set, I've had virtually no success with them. I've been trapping coyotes fairly seriously for almost 30 years. I've changed so many of the things I once were convinced were true, both by more experience, and by reading studies showing the reason for what I was seeing.

I'll say it frankly- 1080 changed my entire outlook on innate behaviors and how using them males success so much easier. And part and parcel of that, is that (excluding blind sets) that one type of baited/lure set, has far more overall appeal and a much higher % of both having the coyote work the set, but more importantly taking that coyote.

digressing a bit from the pipes (what more can one say?) I think the biggest mistake a coyote trapper can make- is to skimp on lure and bait. I can't believe, that anyone that has used a few drops, a teaspoon of bait and then tried a season of lots of lure (and 2 kinds for me at each set) and bait (commercial and for me at each set) hasn't stood back and said WOW! what a difference- cause I know I have- as the years progressed I found quantities of both (and lots of urine) eliminated a lot of foolishness at the set

there- I've offended everyone

[Deleted]

HAH! Not me, I'm not offended! It's my belief that it should be pretty difficult to offend someone during a discussion. Experience tells me though, that isn't neccesarily the case when a discussion turns into a debate!

[coonboy]

One of the best pieces of advice i ever receive about bait and lure was "buy in bulk and use it like it was free"

[trappnman]

I could not agree more. how it ever got started that more than a few drops will spook a coyote, is beyond me.

have they TRIED copious amounts of lure and found wow, my catch went down from 200 a year, to 15?

or are they just parroting what they think others want to hear?

I started using 2 lures and lots of them long ago- not because I read it, but because I could see a definite increase in working sets, and catching coyotes, by using both lots of lure, and multiple lures.

Q tips were never meant for trapping...................

[blackhammer]

Tman you think that aplies to fox as well?

[trappnman]

no Paul I don't believe so- I think it takes less odor for a fox to investigate and to mess around at by far than what attracts a coyote. I've never had enough fox to make fox specific sets, but would guess based on talking to fox trappers with a lot of fox, that much less, and without the variety of multiple lures/baits works just fine.

I do feel that large amounts of lure, does not spook fox- or if it does, they stick around long enough to get caught

[trappnman]

my thoughts are this-

its not that a coyote isn't aware of a few drops of lure

he is- but he either 1) doesn't feel its worth his time and 2) (kinda the same thing) it makes no impression on him because his thought processes are on something else

so I believe, that the more lure and bait you got there- and bait meaning a good glob of commercial and a whole or half gopher, plus an oz or more in combined lures- is like a woman wearing just her birthday suit that has a gorgeous bod, a knockout face, and smells heavenly. I don't care who you are or where you are going- you stop to look

think of it this way- would a coyote going to a destination such as a carcasses pile, waste time or energy on a little bit of nothing, when he knows shortly he can get a belly full? some yes, many know.

what is the driving thing for me, is to increase my catch ratio vis a vis the number of coyotes passing/aware of by my set. if you have a trap sitting for a few days until it catches one- we need to ask how many opportunities has that trap had over those unsuccessful few nights?

and really, boiling it all down- that's the reason for seeking out "THE" spot- because, I believe, that is the location where you will have the highest % of coyotes to traps. But even at the spot, you need to give the coyote what he wants.

[aaroncurtis]

Admittedly I was a "dab" of lure guy. Bait not so much but I definately didn't over lure a set ever. This year will be year # 1 using a healthy amount of lure and urine. I always used a decent glob of bait but I probably could and will use more. I know what my catch percentage was with a dab of lure.......it will be interesting to see what happens. Guilty of reading and believing what all the books said. What does everyone insider a healthy amount of lure? As far as bait goes I usually did a hunk of bait about he size of a golfball cut in half. My call lures were about 3-5 drops of a runny lure and anything thicker was a glob about the size of a pea.

[trappnman]

I know people that use more than me-

its so hard to estimate- I guess I use about 1/4 of an oz of 2 different lures. then either a whole small gopher, or 1/2 of a larger one. Plus I use about a golfball sized glob of commercial bait as well

I also use a lot of urine, at least 2 gals a week and sometimes more.

[aaroncurtis]

When I watched your video I figured you were using quite a bit of urine and guessed it was north of a gallon a week. I found those spray bottles you had at my local farm and feed store.