So what happened to the Minnesota NR Law suit?

[trappincoyotes39]

Also to the rest of the issue, sure politics play into it always have and always will. Most game depts on such an issue will take a neutral approach as they don't want to be the bad guy as either way it has very little impact and not worth taking the heat over on either side. I have seen my share of things take place because of who knew who and that was the only reason it played out as it did, even though it made little sense on any other front. Many,many things that took place that where REAL head shakers after the fact............. Oh the stories I could tell but won't

The QDM issue is do you support such you can say NO if you do not believe in such and you could say NO to question 2 as well it is a survey and if you feel that way then why not state the truth? Did they write down your name on this questionnaire? It all depends on is deer hunting more important to you or if being able to shoot anything means more to you? here in Mo we have antler point restrictions long before I came doesn't really matter to me either way, if I want meat I am shooting a doe first anyhow. If I had a strong opinion on the issue I would mark down what my thoughts are. I have never been one to mince words and always gave my honest thoughts and opinions on issues as such both as a private citizen and also as a state employee , I also knew where my bounds where but I always gave my honest thoughts and opinions on many issues and many where hot button issues. I made it clear if you don't want my true thoughts on something then don't bother asking me. Again while I didn't always agree with the outcomes I had to play the hand dealt me at the time.

[FWS]

Find it FWS.

I said I didnt agree with their laws, but never personally said I personally was going to go after them.

Actually you said that the lawsuit in MN was only the start and that other states would follow unless they changed their laws regarding nonresidents.

Are you denying that ? Looking for wiggle room to claim it wasn't you 'personally' ?

[thorsmightyhammer]

Apr 28, 2014 13:54:20 GMT -6 FWS said:

Find it FWS.

I said I didnt agree with their laws, but never personally said I personally was going to go after them.

Actually you said that the lawsuit in MN was only the start and that other states would follow unless they changed their laws regarding nonresidents.

Are you denying that ? Looking for wiggle room to claim it wasn't you 'personally' ?

I said something along those lines. But I was referring to the states to the immediate east and west of me. States that have enacted laws with zero biological basis.

I also said that in my understanding of some case law, states with animals that can biologically impacted could restrict Nrs on those animals

Now I dont think that california with their restrictive use of tools would fall into that category.

Steve, right now I honestly dont think we stand a chance. I think the MFZTA has the right pull in the right places.

I've said it more than once, but I dont htink there is any doubt in my mind it will change when the baby boomers die off.

Seriously!!!

The younger generations dont seem to mind to share as much and dont have the protectionist mindsets like their predecessors.

Otherwise the only way to truly get it done is to get very actively involved and dont go away. I think I am going ot bring it up every year I go to a general meeting. I also think that even though I have no idea how I'll find the time, its time for me to try and either be a director or co director. Probably the co as I have pretty much zero free time right now. Probably wont make a hill of beans difference but their is another issue that I think needs to be addressed even more than the NR stuff.

Randy, I did answer no to question number 2 as I felt that was exactly the reason they asked that question.

One of the survey questions brought into evidence at the trial was(and I am paraphrasing here and probably not very accurately) is money your primary motivation for trapping? Of course a majority answered no. So the conclusion by the states attorney was that the majority trap for recreation.

Now IMHO a good question that should have been on that survey would have been would you still trap if your fur had no commercial value.

What do you think the consensus would have been?

[trappincoyotes39]

Steven if money was truly the motivating factor one could say then why would a majority of people trap with outside of a few years fur markets have been in the tank. Equipment cost have risen sharply in the last 15-20 years and fur prices have not gone up to keep up with rise in output cost. So is money really the motivating factor for most trappers those that set 20-30 traps for 2 weeks out of a season? Those that spend a few 100 every year at conventions to take 2 -3 weeks off to trap species with lower fur value?

Like it or not there are a pile of recreational trappers out there no bones about it. How many can say they rely upon a fur check each year to make ends meet? That fur money is a part of their living budget? I am not arguing their are some, but the percentage is very low. I posted this on another forum. If we had 5,000 trappers per state that claimed to count on fur or ADC work as a portion of their annual income and relied on it and you take a work force of 125,000,000 decide that out and if we had 5,000 guys per state that relied on ADC or fur checks for a portion claimed on their IRS taxes you would end up with .002 percent of the workforce relying on ADC/fur trapping dollars after expenses as part of their income. So meaning we would need 250,000 trappers in the US making any portion claimed from this endeavor.

Now if we want to say even if ONE person is making a portion of their income from such that then ALL of fur trapping is commercial so be it and then we are back to the can of worms I worry about. Again how about states then decided to make two license for sale recreational harvest and commercial fur harvest license? The cost of course would be very different for both. Then if your a commercial trapper you need to apply for and receive a state sales tax license for goods or services and accurate record keeping of what was caught and price received and taxes due on that.

I just look beyond the fact that this lawsuit was trying to use such a topic to move through NR trapping without thinking of further ramifications involved is all.

[trappnman]

hammertime- what survey are you talking about? are you meaning the MTA survey? cause I never got any from the dnr

you would make a good director- sadly, I agree with the assessment concerning dying off of opposition. I'd love to have it happen in my lifetime, sure would like to be able to drive around the lake to trap in WI

for sure that question would have been answered 90%+ in saying that if no money for trapping, most would not trap

Then if your a commercial trapper you need to apply for and receive a state sales tax license for goods or services and accurate record keeping of what was caught and price received and taxes due on that.


no, you wouldn't need a sales tax # (at least here in MN), you simply deduct the total as an expense- I only need my tax number to collect sales tax

as far as the rest, we all should be doing that now if a profit was made

I'm of the belief that once a trappers owns traps, there is no reason not to make a profit on his line- the fewer traps I set, the more profit I make vis vis expenses. If I'm running 10 traps- I check very few empty traps-

[wbg]

If money is not a huge motivational factor, then how do you explain the significant increase in lic. sales during this so called fur boom of the last couple of years? Trapping is and always has been commercial. This country is full of roadside produce stands some big some small, some run as hobbies some as very profitable ventures, some very successful some failures. The one thing they all have in common is that they all are commercial.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman your selling goods being the furs unless your buyer is paying sales tax on that. if you sell on taxidermy.net or other avenues you would have to collect sales tax as your deemed a business are you not? In SD outfitters tried to get around not collecting sales tax many found themselves in trouble as they were selling a service.

I never said money was not a concern I said how do we define commercial trapping versus recreational trapping? If trapping would be deemed as truly commercial via this lawsuit then one would have to collect tax as it is then a business. No matter how small a business is if your selling goods or services and your at the end of the line except a consumer by many state laws you would collect sales tax.

I had a small business in SD for a few years I collected sales tax on goods sold and paid that quarterly, if I resold then I didn't have to worry about it but still had to keep records of who I resold to.

So in Minnesota when you are paid to trap gophers you do not have to collect sales tax for services rendered?

[jdpaint]

Sorry to butt in but do you know if you need a business name along with the ID #?

[thorsmightyhammer]

Randy, I could see your premise that sales tax might need to be collected on ADC type services. I dont know, I dont do that type of service.

But i cant see it on the fur sold to a furbuyer, I never heard of a farmer paying sales tax on corn sold to the elevator. At least not here in MN>

WBG, that is another good point that I had thought of at the time as well. License sales in MN are up a significant amount since the recent rise in fur prices.

Steve the surve was done by the AFWA in conjunction with their BMP studies.s

I looked it over and in the survey 16 percent of respondants said that  the income was important to their household.

The states attorney turned that around and said that 84 percent responded that income wasnt important so trapping mustnt be a commercial venture to the majority.

I wish our attorney would have asked what WBG alluded to and how come if income isnt a motivation why have sales increased so much in the current mini boom.  Also the survey was done in 2004 and the questions asked of the respondants were asking about no more than three years prior. 

It helped the states case that the survey was done when fur prices were low.  I wonder if anyone thought farming wasnt commercial in the 80s and 90s when a lot of farmes were going bankrupt and people loosing their homes. 

Look at the survey and soak it in.  70 percent of respondants said their trapping income was less than a grand.  Seriously?  Less than a grand. 

Look at the expenditures they were reporting.  Mean was like 300 bucks?  Seriously?  Who did they survey? The Amish?




Survey

[trappincoyotes39]

JD paint in many states yes you would need a business name to get a sales tax ID.

Steven so is it your thought that this survey was doctored or tainted somehow by AFWA?

Also remember these nationwide surveys are not cheap to do I have heard though they plan on doing another so time in the future.


here is WI from 2012-2013

dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/reports/furtrapsurv2.pdf

One could extrapolate all kinds of things from this survey as well but again the numbers are the numbers. The math is simple only the words change depending on what your point is.

[thorsmightyhammer]

Your last sentence is exactly why I don't like nor trust surveys.

MN just sent out a more detailed one not all thatlkng ago. I never got one, I would sure have liked to or at least seen a copy to see what the questions were .

[trappnman]

Sorry to butt in but do you know if you need a business name along with the ID #?

if a sole proprietorship or limited partnership, you don't need a business name per se, you can use your own name (at least in MN)

no sale tax collection for ADC work

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman why no sales tax for ADC work? Your selling a service no different than repairing tires or such?

[trappnman]

no sales tax on most services here

[motrapperjohn]

Hey TC, Missouri is talking about going reciprocal for that exact reason and I think most states should do so. But that would hurt those like in MN who is for NR trapping who cant go to neighboring states because of their own restrictions. But it don't stop the crooks who still sneak out to where they don't belong. I know of several MN residents who has been trapping North Dakota and none of them gave a dime to the fight. I will not attend the Forest Zone convention or the South Dakota convention for those reasons. South Dakota finally got it open to NRs after years of trying to do so only to be shut down by some lazy slob trappers, some of who has now had their privliges revoked in several states for everything from trespassing, trapping out of season, not checking traps, and I heard that there is still other charges pending including theft. It has all to do with greed. I bet half of them trap only when prices get up there and don't bother at all when prices are low.

[trappincoyotes39]

Yes John the mighty muskrat caused a lot of issues in SD, you can still trap in SD but just an out of whack season deal. I look for some changes to be made. I also know of a Minn guy that was trying to work dual residency and almost got caught doing so for the mighty muskrat as well so really know different just greed causes all kinds of issues for sure.

I Am all for NR trapping anywhere as long as it doesn't take the shape of a lawsuit of the nature tried in Minn. is all.

[blackhammer]

May 5, 2014 17:54:27 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Yes John the mighty muskrat caused a lot of issues in SD, you can still trap in SD but just an out of whack season deal. I look for some changes to be made. I also know of a Minn guy that was trying to work dual residency and almost got caught doing so for the mighty muskrat as well so really know different just greed causes all kinds of issues for sure.

I Am all for NR trapping anywhere as long as it doesn't take the shape of a lawsuit of the nature tried in Minn. is all.

How do you almost get caught? Explain that, it was legal or wasn't. Facts much? Basically you can trap rats under ice in South Dakota, coon and mink too. Early December to Feb 28. If Minnesota did the same it would be a poor excuse for a season but I suppose better than nothing. Everyone traps for money to some degree but some don't have the stones to trap with competion. No one likes it but some find ways to make the best of it. To me being an resident or local gives you a huge advantage in getting more fur. Something the Dakota boys never figured out. Was in northern Minnesota beaver trapping last week. Had a guy come up tp me at a highway culvert and said he was disgusted I was there as he had trapped it his whole life. Must have been a forest zone guy. I was a non resident to him. The advantages he had in knowing the country, when the water was open enought to trap were substancal. Me on the other hand chasing twenty dollar beaver with 3.50 gas have a terrible addiction and no brains. How these forest zone guys can be so scared of nrs trapping their beaver is beyond me. I at least had a place to stay, skin and strore fur. To go up there cold from say Missouri would be an expensive vacation.

[trappnman]

without a doubt Paul, something I've always said-

knowing the land and knowing what occurs when, field conditions, farmers patterns etc is a huge advantage-

some of my best water areas, are pinpoint to a degree spots, that took me years to define

plus, other locals can't get permission on my land- I'm not too worried about NR doing so.

[trappincoyotes39]

Black hammer lets leave it at almost. He Felt the heat and all of the sudden was a Minnesota resident again in No time

The rest your exactly right on for the most part and things we used to state why NR trappers would have little impact on locals, plus South Dakota weather and put cat seasons doesn't open until mid December for anyone and closes Feb 15 th so your not going to get many at all cat trapping in those conditions from out of state. One good blizzard and your shut down for awhile.


Not too mention -15 to -25 temps common in January and February that ain't trapping Kansas or Missouri cats what so ever.

[motrapperjohn]

The MN lawsuite was more to let them out than it was for anyone to go in. Who in the hell would want to go there in the winter anyhow. just a bunch of poor trappers afraid they might loose a few beaver up in the north part. It was more of hey guys file the suite here kinda thing. I would head south any day of the week before I would head north.