Screen wire revisited......again

[bogio]

I want to relate what I found on MY LINE this year.

I had problems with stiff wire screen pan covers, aka O'G style.A pictoral example of my trap adjustment (#3 montys) led 1080 to point out that my notches were sexually challenged and my pan level was too high with a resulting high loose jaw. I recut some (not all) of my notches and lowered all my pan levels subsequently bringing down the loose jaw. The new notch raised pan tension and the lower pan promoted a flatter lying screen to eliminate misfires and sore fingers with the stiffer screens.

I ran a mix of stiff O'G screens and soft screens from the local lumber yard. With the soft screens and low pan adjustment I experienced several instances in which the coyote stepped within the jaws but not directly on the pan. The soft screen sagged enough to allow the coyote's weight to be supported on the lever and not fire the trap. This was the very problem I was trying to resolve through the use of a screen cover.

HOWEVER, with the stiff screen, used in conjunction with a properly cut notch, this problem was nonexistent. It did not occur even ONCE. In addition, I did not experience an upswing in the number of toe catches. For whatever reason, they (toe catches) are a rarity for me with these traps.

Another modification that was made was the addition of Canadian Jaws on these same traps. I did this primarily in anticipation of an increase of poor catches but found that to be a moot point. I did find that this modification took an already foot friendly laminated jaw and made it "friendlier".

I know this subject has been beaten to death and most have a cover they are satisfied with but wanted to share what I experienced this year.

Thanks 1080.

[trappnman]

with the montanas, no adjustment ot lower thep an is possible

by cutting the softer screen large enough so that its locked down on both sides under the fixed jaw, it eliminates any sagging- you get a tight screen and we had zero problems in using it, and both of us were very pleased

[trappincoyotes39]

bogio do you use any guiding?

[trappnman]

use of guides does not preclude the use of screens- one is isolated from the other insofar as objectives

[trappincoyotes39]

Well in my book it does. If he had several or I had several paws inside the jaws and no fired trap. Again we have been over the % of coyote tracks inside of a jaw spread with an unfired trap. No matter pan cover one chooses guiding can help with that situation. show them where to step and most will.

That is why I asked if he uses any guiding.

[trappnman]

yes, I know you don't like wire screens-

but my point is valid- guiding only gets the foot to the trap- no amount of guidng, is going to give EXACT foot placement inside that trap- you are welcome to post pictures of finished sets if you disagree- I'd be curious to see guiding to give that precise result.

guiding helps put a foot inside the trap jaws- and perhaps more importantly, gets him working it from the direction you want

[trappincoyotes39]

Guiding is effective, as to how much that could be debated for many years. I agree not exact but better off with it, than none at all IMO. As we know guiding can take many forms. From physical materials used to distance of trap from attraction point etc.

I just asked a simple question in that: Does he use any guiding at his sets.

[trappnman]

you have asked the question before, on the same subject, coming to the conclusion that proper guiding, negates screen use.

and as I said- one has nothing to do with the other.

guiding is used to #1- get the coyote coming in the way you want it to & #2 guiding is used to direct his foot inside the trap.

I use guides- heck, I 'grew up" using 1.75s on coyotes, and if you ever needed proper guidng, its with smaller traps.

Screen use, has nothing to do with proper guiding of a coyotes body and feet.

and yes, set construction is an essential part of guiding techniques- but all guiding ends at the trap jaw

[trappincoyotes39]

I never stated it negates screen use but most coyote traps in use can benefit from guiding over those not guided . You seem to want to make more out of my simple question than what is....................

Guiding stops at the trap jaw Yep but what they do with those next steps is what counts, working over or around a guide can place the foot inside the jaws many times in a natural way. Then set type,construction and matierlas used all can make a difference as to foot placement. Distance and location of such.

Not the use of screen, use what ever to cover the pan as they are all covered under dirt correct? I'm more about pan size and area of coverage inside the jaws that is where my importance lays. A centered pan all around to me, is key in my success with the traps I have used for coyotes. That light came on after getting my first sterling trap back in 89-90.

Glen sterling SR has told me screen has no effect on the success of this trap and since you are referencing the great OG he also stated the same. One has to ask a firm screen believer as to why?

Look I know in the past 4-6 years screen has become your main stay great, but more than one way to skin a cat a high% of the time and not seeing "several" inside the jaw misses each fur season or doing adc trapping other times of the year.

Trapping has always been a game of inches that will always remain the same.

Back to Bogio..........................................

[trappnman]

come on TC- I remember the past discussion, and your point there was this-

you didn't get tracks inside your jaws- therefore didn't need screens for that purpose, because you guided. this is all deju vu- bogios info was a stiffer screen solved his problem, not should he guide more or use screen

He, and I, use screen becasue it eliminates that odd footprint inside the jaws- the fact it makes a good pan cover to keep dirt from under the pan, is just a bonus. If I had to put poly under a pan cause the screen let down too much dust or sand etc, I still use the screen.

[trappnman]

where did I reference O'G concerning screen use?

[trappincoyotes39]

Correct Tman because I use guiding at every set and the traps I use with a centered pan and tension allows me to catch the highest majority of coyotes that visit and work the sets I have placed, that simple in a nutshell. Again I don't have near the issues with prints inside the jaws using the traps I do with filters, set construction and guiding or I would use something else if in fact I was seeing this at any real rate to cause concern. I don't.

Look at some coyote video when it comes in and works smells and relation as to where their feet are. Change the height of the smell change the foot placement. I think this is a key point some might not consider when making a set and trap spacing. we aren;t talking ft change either.

I guess my point is I have found a way to keep paw tracks inside the jaws with no fire of my traps to very minimal through the years with guiding them and set construction and trap placement.

It all comes down to ME the size and shape of the pan for over all % of not seeing what bogio did with soft screen.

One also has to look at as you lower the pan the screen must be more rigid to ensure those offset foot prints can still make the trap fire. A low pan and soft screen could in fact cause some misfires specially with good pan tension.

Tman you made this post just 4 years back what was the change?

its just a quick easy method that I like- in no way superior to other methods, just different.

I do like screen pan covers- but am not convinced they give me any more coyotes, and while I don't mind replacing screens after coon or canines- it burns me that I have to do the same with every possum skunk catch. So I think unless special circumstance- pure sugar sand for example- I'm staying with the poly.

Did you guide back then? Or did something change were you found more tracks inside the jaws than previous?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman all I did was ask a simple question nothing more or less. The OG was used as a drop as some have done in the past. I'm thinking your line of thought is any trap " coyote sized" could benefit greatly from screen is all. Nothing more or less.

[trappnman]

I guided exactly the same back then as I do now.

Go back over years, and you will see where I went back and forth on screen use- multiple posts written

and in the past few years, more recent thought, I clearly posted on multiple threads, that I HAD gone back and forth on screen use- each time, becoming a little more convinced of its value AS a bigger kill area- I could care less if its a pan cover or not- anything works as a cover- even coffee filters.

3-4 years ago, after my back and forth and back and forth the conclusions became clear- I DID take more coyotes wih a screen, on montanas, than without. I still use poly on 1.75s

soft screen was only a problem on montys that have a lower pan- NOT a problem on montans with a higher pan- and I know, from using them exclusively al lseaosn, that cutting them oversized eliminates ALL sag, ALL loosness on the montanas. thats a fact

cause I and I'm going to assume bogio- we aren't talking massive amounts of tracks inside jaws, we are talking a rlow % but its a % that IS there, is one runs enough traps and years without screens on bigger traps- its going to happen sooner or later

so unless you don't want to spend the money- why not use them-then you know you aren't going to have a toe inside the jaws and the fact that they are a super pan cover to boot-

if you truly never get a track imprint on a not fired traps, or the few you get don't bother you then are doing it the way you need to do it.

my point isn't that since I got it (prints) you should, or would- my point is simply all the guiding/ set construction in the world, isn't going to do more than put his foot inside the jaws

[trappincoyotes39]

has nothing to do with money. Take a coyote foot find a sterling trap or a bridger with a PIT pan on it and see what happens when you put a foot inside of either of these traps and find a jake while your at it. If your traps have room inside the jaws for a full comminment of said foot then use screen by all means.

You missed my point that the size of the jaw spread needs to have a pan that is relative in size to limit the ability to get a foot inside with out firing in the first place. That has been my point since day one, the main reason I don't have much of that at all period. The guiding helps as on the bridgers

Tman measure the width of your Montana from pan edge to jaw frame you have 2" of space either side of the pan, your jaw spread is 5 3/4" follow me so far?

I run 3 bridgers which are 6 1/2" side to side spread I have 1 3/4" of space inside of my traps. The reason being my pan is BIGGER meaning more sq inches of pan inside a larger jaw spread. So while you use a smaller trap you have the same/more space as I do with a larger jaw spread, because the pans on the montanas are too narrow on the sides. IMOC

Now lets look at jaw spread from top to bottom of loose jaw the Monatana has 5 5/8" of length you end up with 1.5" of free space from the bottom of the pan to the edge of the loose jaw, now lets look at the bridger 3 with the PIT pan I have a full 6" of jaw spread and 1 3/4" of space N-S so I am adding 1/2" which in turn means more sq inches inside the jaws but with the bigger PIT pan I'm offsetting that free area over a standard long and narrow pan. That is why I take off the standard bridger pans from the get go.

Overall I use a bigger trap and have less FREE space inside my trap than you do with the Monatana. That is what a centered pan is all about! Also with a larger spread on a coyote more natural foot movements than a smaller trap which we already confirmed with the 1.75 and foot placement correct?

So here is where I can do things with my filters that would be very hard with screen. I can place step guides INSIDE of my jaws when the trap is packed and bedded solid. I don't stop on the outside of the jaws. The BEST place for my 3 bridger to fit a full foot inside is at the 45 angle on the loose jaw side, so knowing that I can place a small stick inside the jaws down in the dirt and have no issues with the trap firing or catching the coyote in question. I have done this for years with the long/narrow pans as well to make them better until I got ahold of pit pans. bean stubble, wheat stubble, small sticks anything I can poke down into the ground and leave it up just enough he will step around or over that onto the pan. anything small and subtle on the outside of the jaw just amplifies foot placement a little more. Like cactus or what ever else I use. It is natural because of the larger trap.

Pretty hard to do that with a trap covered in wire screen.

Now toes then were are both on the same page unless your using nothing for pan tension what so ever. We went from a track to toes?

[trappincoyotes39]

Also on the sterling mj600 the pan is so well centered no need for inside guides at all. outside only due to it's pan shape and size relative to the jaws. That is why I really like them but they cost alot more and more effort in maintenance after many years of use.

If I where building the PIT pans I would add 1/4" to the width and 1/2" to the loose jaw and one would have a perfect pan again IMO for the 3 bridger. Yet they suit my needs for sure the way they are by doing what I do.

There you have it my keys to success without the use of screen

Early on before I went PIT pans on the Bridgers .

[bogio]

Surely did not anticipate all of this.

I don't know how many of these types of misses (or any kind of miss for that matter) constitutes a lot but as far as I am concerned, ONE is too many.

I do use guides and am relatively successful at putting the foot where it needs to be. The misses (track within the jaw) I have experienced are very specific and consistent as to where they occur in the pattern. They also seem to be exacerbated by frozen ground conditions. As of yet, I haven't found a guide to correct this which didn't have a negative effect on the coyotes willingness to commit. The stiff screens correct the problem with no negative effects.

Tman

When I cut my soft screens, I pulled my measurement out of my dim memory (I know. Measure twice, cut once) and cut up an entire roll of covers 3/8" too narrow. Since they wouldn't lock down at the frame ends it made the problem all the more noticeable. Next year there will be no soft screen.

[ChrisM]

I must be really unobservant. Been using the soft screen since 76 on 3dls, 2 montys, 3 montys both dog on and dogless and 3 bridgers. I have never seen these problems I keep reading about.

I never notch the screens and have no idea why anyone would ever pack dirt inside the jaws.

[trappnman]

When I cut my soft screens, I pulled my measurement out of my dim memory (I know. Measure twice, cut once) and cut up an entire roll of covers 3/8" too narrow. Since they wouldn't lock down at the frame ends it made the problem all the more noticeable. Next year there will be no soft screen.

I could not agree more-

and that was part of (if not all) the reason I went back and forth. Stiff screens on the montanas caused tension problems, and soft screen (I was using bought cut screens from Graham) was, in my opinion, too narrow and I had problems there (as Bogio said) as well- so back to poly.

but the advantages still outweighed the disadvantages (screens overall)- so I was notching the stiff screen. Last year, looking for bulk scren ,we could only find te softer screen. So we cut a few and treid tem- and we found that cutting them wider, solved all the problems I was having with saggy, or worse, bubbled screen.

with the oversized screens, I no longer notch, but just pop on (as you showed me years ago Chris) and we are 100% satisfied and our particular search for the right screen is over.

TC- if guiding inside the jaws works for you, thats good, I'm not going to put guides inside my trap, screen or no screen. I don't believe in microguidng to that extent, but thats me, not everyone I guess. While I always like coyote pics, they don't aid the debate in anyway-

I would like to see a finished set, with the insides guides if you got one and vare to share.

[trappincoyotes39]

The pic should tell you my guiding does work. More natural than you think.