Location 101 vs. THE SPOT

[bogio]

A couple days ago I posted pictures of a double in the dark. I did not remake those sets as I had to get to work. Went in yesterday, replaced the traps as they had gotten rained on and had started to rust and remade the sets. Had a light snow and dropping temps last night and had this male this morning. His traveling partner checked out the other set and went on his/her way. This makes the 3rd coyote in this set and the 5th coyote at this location. Took pictures in all directions (wish I had video) to show that I think this is a classic location 101 type set. It has caught multiple coyotes which indicates to me that it is a GOOD location. Why I don't think this is what can be considered THE SPOT is the fact that it has taken 18 days to produce those 5 animals. I lost a couple days due to rain/snow/blowing conditions right after the first of the year and a day till I remade them but still, I've been there a while. Tman and 1080 want locations that give those 5 animals or more in a much shorter time frame.


Facing northwest. This is a pretty large tract of CRP with an abandoned county road running north/south through about the center of it. It also has a field road running east/west through it that crosses the old road at this point. That pile was pushed up initially to stop traffic. I have a 5 gal. bucket's worth of fleshing scrapings dumped in the brush around it.


Straight north. You can see the old road bed heads up the hill, hooks west, then turns back north past the old house site.


Straight south. The short bluff is the approach to where the bridge used to span the river. The bridge burned and they closed the road from the house site down to here. White truck back in there is a local who cuts wood in here. He had made a lap up here and looked the coyote over.



Straight east.


Straight west. Field road angles off to the right a little after dropping over the roadway.


Multiple long travel lanes, river barrier, elevation, cover, focal point. Location 101 but not THE SPOT.



Nothing trapping related. Just makes me grin every time I go by here. Not much of a place but well maintained.

[trappnman]

exactly my point.

and more to the point- by setting up 101 locations, I have no clue as to where the spot is

look at it like I used to trap- traps here, traps there, traps over here traps over there- and over time, the same coyotes have a good chance of getting caught but somewhere, at that general location area- there is going to be one spot, where you could catch 90% of those same coyotes, quickly, and with a fraction of the trap numbers.

so you could have a 200 mile route, and set 125 traps to maintain and pull over that route, setting up all those 101 locations- or, you could eliminate all those type locations, instead travelling same distance, catch the smne number, or more, coyotes with far less number of traps.

and while I like instant gratification as well as the next man, how anyone can think that success via this route isn't going to take time on the ground ,with te coytes, etc

setting traps willy nilly at every possible location, is counterproductive to MY learning curve.

setting traps at every 101 location, was how I wa happily motoring along, until I realized there was a better way.

[bogio]

I'm still trapping 101 but I'm learning THE SPOT.

[ksboy2]

easy on him g'man.... he did catch one ya know.. LOL

[bogio]

Jan 13, 2013 21:25:24 GMT -6 ksboy2 said:

easy on him g'man.... he did catch one ya know.. LOL

Well sniff sniff.

5 at this location.

8 on this farm.

Plus I had to turn this loose.



YOU still trapping or just spreading sunshine?

[ksboy2]

how long is your catch pole?? what you got there like 6' of chain....

[Zagman]

While your past system may have had you setting traps willy-nilly, please do not assume that is how we all have been doing it.

With the dogs, I set 100% on sign.......hardly willy-nilly. I scout my locations BEFORE season. I pull into a farm and know EXACTLY where my traps are going......you will never hear me say "Pulled into my spot and the crops weren't out yet" I know that BEFORE I get there.

Whether tracks, turds, or dog-found grass tufts, I am setting on sign every time.....and have been for a decade.

I just cannot understand one thing? If you are spending the same amount of time checking the traps and driving the same distance or more, what is the overall motivation to catch more with less? Lure and bait savings?

MZ

[trappnman]

"willy nilly" refers to placing traps on coyote sign only

thought that was understood over the scope of these discussions- that rather setting on sign as per the coyote 101 books, or willy nilly in my terms- one is eliminating all the willy, and concentrating on the nilly- so to speak

as far as why the importance of more coyotes with less traps in same miles- is that I don't like empty traps- 7% with a 100 traps, means 93 freaking coyote traps a day with no coyotes.

and I used to run 3-4 weeks pretty much like you do now. with pretty similar results.

I became a 1080 disciple- I make no apology for that-

so the goal is eventually more traps, less locations, more coyotes.

again the instant gratification thing- its been 3 years , and I'm probably setting 125-130 over all locations with the vast majority of them not only new, but in unfamiliar territory for me, not my stomping grounds-

now, after year three- the routes are set, the time lines known, the road and travel patterns figured out and confirmed.

the skeleton line, is now in place- now, those lines will be added to, and I expect next year, to have a good increase in types of locations over this year, over last year.

Hey, I was doing OK- taking my 80-100 coyotes without going too far out of my way, going out west, and doing OK compared to how other eastern trappers were doing in same places and areas, so I didn't come to this just off the coy-o-tee truck-

so trust me, I didn't change methods lightly

I wanted to give it a try 4 years ago- and didn't have the balls to go for it-

3 years ago I did- and I see the results- if set up right- 5,6,7 coyotes out of a couple traps in under a week at a location- rather than setting double the traps and waiting twice as long

now with running and gunning checking traps 4,5,6 nights at the most- if I wasn't on location, those spots didn't pay off beyond the singleton here and there-

but I 'd have enough "right" locations, to more than make up the difference.

so the answer for this method isn't to set more and more locations with traps on sign- but to- over time- get ALL your locations at those points where 5,6,7 in a few days is the norm.

so you have no wasted traps or miles

again, gratification of the goal isn't going to happen overnight. I had 20 plus years developing my methods, locations choices, etc but even back a decade or more collaring coyotes, I could see the patterns of being a "spot" and the coyotes caught, and where they went, and what they did vs catching coyotes at other locations. Quite noticeable to me- and I wrote a couple of articles, and discussed it over many forums, calling those locations party spots or social areas-

the research tells why this occurred

so setting 100 traps over a loop, at mile points or at secondary locations, is counterproductive and isn't telling me anything.

the goal is 100% "the spot" locations
to set up what I know is a travel way, or intersection, or a place as Steven says where I could catch a coyote, does nothing for my learning curve.

and adage in fishing is- if you want to learn how to spinner fish, then spinner fish

I KNOW locations 101- and I've given a lot of demos on coyote locations 101

To get past that point, I need to spinner fish-

now next year, "misses" will be eliminated, "hits" will be maintained- so the number of hits will go up (they have each year) After all, one loop this past year was 100% new, and another 50% new territory for me- and over time, I should have loops made up of 70,80% and perhaps more of being on the spot, where every coyote for miles around is going to come- and maybe that 20-25% with be a reality.

Steven- I put on about 6500 miles coyote trapping. much of that is gravel and hill roads.

[Possum]

In your first photos in this post and "thinking" directionally, I'd have put at least 2 sets at this spot but if I only had one spot there to set, I'd have set it about 20 yards farther west past the brush pile. 1) prevailing westerly wind - where you caught the coyote is east of the N/S road and won't be detected by coyotes traveling that way. 2) higher ground. Early season, less wet problems, also, likely sandier soils making setting easier. I also think coyotes feel less threatened and more likely to work sets on slight rises as opposed to nearby low areas.
Personal preference, but even at the general area where you set, I'd probably have made the set about 1/2 way closer to the brush pile - not much, just a little.

[bogio]

You mean more like this?







Catch pole is 5ft. Chains about 30 in.

Cats are easy, you want shiitty, turn loose otters.

[trappnman]

you pointed out exactly I think, what the difference is between the two types of locations.

And I'm entirely in agreement with you on I'm still setting up such locations, but trying to eliminate them in favor of stall out/overlap locations.

on land I've trapped for years, its hard to pass by a good travel way, esp when you know you can catch coyotes at it. add in most of those farms are my gopher farms as well, so not only are many farmers friends and want me to trap, but I see sign all summer-

I have areas where over 2-3 weeks I'd catch a doz coyotes- 2 here, 2 there, etc

but now staying only 4-6 nights, I cannot afford to wait, I need to be where they are NOW.

On new farms, esp in new territory, its easier to pass by secondary location, cause I have no history there- so on those, I'm finding higher % at "the spots".

I only get permission on farms that offer what I think are characteristics of the spot- some of the things I insist on are lots and lots of cows, good habitat in multiple directions within 5-10 miles, and a reason to be there.

When I find such locations, and see the sign, I literally begin to salivate- just lickin' my chops!

We made a real effort, in older territory where we would set multiple farms in the area, to winnow that down to 1, or 2 locations that I felt were the best. Again, it does me no good in my quest, to catch traveling coyotes, if my ultimate goal is to have them come to me.

I set places now, I never would have had the nerve to set up before- in the stacks, around the buildings, next to the pens, the barns, etc- and found what I was told would be true- if a farmer didn't want me trapping coyotes "there"- then move on, he doesn't have a coyote problem cause if he did, he would say like several of them have- "can you start today?"

so there's a big hint for you, not my original thought just passing it on.

[Zagman]

Since you drive to all of these spots in a truck, I'd assume there are multiple spots worthy of your time to set up, no?

But still, there has to be many of these optimum spots around the country that you cannot get to by vehicle?

Dead piles/dumps, buildings, bunks, piles of hay bales, etc....I know and understand usually have good vehicular access and are attractions in their own right.....

But still, something that these stall out areas you DO set have in common as to be a roadway or two, i.e., travelway for your vehicle and possibly loafing coyotes.

MZ

[trappnman]

Since you drive to all of these spots in a truck, I'd assume there are multiple spots worthy of your time to set up, no?

not sure what you mean, or what you are asking. For sure there are limitless spots to set up- but few worthy of my time.

yes, I have access. As much via chopped corn and fields as roadways. very rarely, can I not access what I want. I think I set at maybe 6 intersections or along field road locations past year.

I don't mind answering questions, but expect the same in return-

and 2xs now I asked you if you think the set is more important than the location? If you think that where a coyote is, has anything do do with ones ability to catch him? that in some locations, you get a dumb one or two- but in other locations, you get them "all"?

and that at some locations, you get them in the first couple of nights and in others you get them over time?

because thats what the whole discussion is about-

[trappnman]

what is your definition, of the ultimate stall out location? how do you find it? What are the criteria?

or don't you pay any attention to where they are stalling out, or overlapping territories, and just set wherever you find sign?

and some just happen to be "spot" areas?

aren't you curious to know why, and try to duplicate such?

[Zagman]

Sorry....NO, I do not think the set is more important than the location.

I catch a high percentage of my coyotes in the loud set too. Often, when I only have one coyote or the first coyote caught at the location, it is indeed at the grass tuft set.

I accept that over the course of my line, ALL of my locations cannot be what I call A-plus spots......I will also set some A and B locations as well.

I trap in the snow more than I like.....I see what coyotes do in the snow regardless of location. I say circling, but that is not meant to be a literal term....more of standing back, pacing, being in the area and clearly aware of my sets, but not committing.

I assume it DOES happen in bare ground......and cant help but notice my success with the dogs and GT's in those situations.

You say coyotes do not act this way in these stall out spots.....I have read the studies but I have not found that detail calling that out.

Heck, if there's ever a spot where I'd say coyotes are stalling out, its a calf dump.

Ever notice how much circling, standing back, climbing bales, etc. coyotes do at calf dumps? As 1080 says "They come in high!" Subordinate coyotes coming in cautiously to avoid getting their butt kicked by the more dominate coyote(s) at this spot. Hardly a relaxed situation......for those lessor coyotes.

I understand the premise of a coyote having one thing on their mind, and that a traveling coyote is less likely to work a set than a stalled out one.

I can't think of anytime I set a single travelway ......unless perhaps its relatively close to a calf dump and a point of entry....but even then, its the dump that has them on that travelway and they are within a pitching wedge of the dump site.

When I DO set for traveling coyotes, generally several travel ways come together at a point of interest, major drainage, pinch point, dominant feature, barriers, etc.....the more the merrier. These spots were what I flippantly referred to as being taught in Location 101. Again, not ONE travelway or point of interest, but several............

Oh, and I am sure, I will be able to drive my truck there!

MZ

[trappnman]

You say coyotes do not act this way in these stall out spots.....I have read the studies but I have not found that detail calling that out.

why do coyotes circle sets? Would you agree its because something bothers them as they become aware of the set? That they are unsure, standing back?

I believe that.

I also have come to believe, that where he encounters that set, is the determining factor in how he works that set.

indeed, even if he works the set at all, or is even aware of the set.

the studies show that in stall out locations, their inhibitions are down vis a vis stimuli. That their mindsets are different- that negative inherent natures (as pertaining to trapping) are reduced.

that they approach and "work" sets with more boldness. That they respond more to stimuli.

Why do coyotes stall out? and by stall out lets make it clear- I'm talking a location that they spend a lot of time in, on a regular if not daily basis. and for me, that common denominator does seem to be "safety" overall- and then add in land features, access routes etc.

Heck, if there's ever a spot where I'd say coyotes are stalling out, its a calf dump.

maybe, but not necesarily. The dead pile is for sure the attraction point. I agree 100% with that. But the dead pile can or can't be the stall out area. Its not a given.

Dead piles can be stall out spots, but often the stall out spot is away from the attraction. I've been told I'm not going to find them from the truck, and I can see the validity of that.

don't get me wrong, I still set up travelways- and my travelway locations mirror yours- but if one believes as I do, that awareness, inclination to work a set, etc are reduced on travelways (and thats not to say a stall out point cannot BE on those intersecting travelways, cause I know they do) in general, then I needed to move off of non stall out travelway locations.

alos consider this- if there are multiple coyote, esp groups, they are going in multiple ways to the stall out/hang up areas. not all travel roads or waterways or field edges- look at the snwo, the cut cross country as much as they follow roads.

the route to the stall out or lay up or whatever you want to call them, are many- be where they are going to have the shot at the most coyotes.

and yes, i'm finding it hard to determine true multiple group stall out areas, from spots a couple of coyotes loaf in.

Don't take my answers as ironclad or gospel, much of it is my conclusions based on what I have learned.

I can go to a mink stream, stand on the bank, and tell you with certainty, where would be the best location for a blind set or two.

and I'd be hard pressed to tell you why.

Imagine being able to do that with coyotes- to look over the layout, and be able to say- there- thats the spot. To know coyotes that well, to understand them more than they do themselves. To work taking advantage of all their behaviors

We both know thats being done by those 1%ers.

I'll never have the coyote exposure to be in that class, but with hard work, with an inclination to succeed, I can get at least partway there

[bogio]

Hey Possum!

Forgot to take the camera this morning but this male makes 4 out of that set to the east of the roadway! I too thought that the set up on the road would be the hot one but the coyotes think otherwise! Pretty decent coyote as ours go.

[Possum]

The best place to catch a coyote is where you've already caught a coyote. Remakes rock! Changes a so-so spot into a good spot, many times. Also, just because the prevailing wind is west doesn't mean it can't blow from the east. I always keep track of predicted wind directions and set accordingly or just make enough sets to accommodate various winds. That spot looks fairly windswept, but I do have a few areas with enough topography or trees that on light wind nights I expect the wind to swirl and really confuse things.

[trappnman]

I'd disagree- a so so spot is going to be a so so spot- and taking coyotes from it, makes it less- since there were few coyotes there to start

--------------------

Added to: been thinking about this, and I am going to qualify my opinion.

Yes, you can make a so- so location better in that you can increase your chances of connecting with the coyotes at that location- by baiting up, by adding cacasses, by yes, catching a coyote there-

What I meant more, was the lcoation itself was still going to be so so as a location-

let me say this, it might clear up some misunderstanding- I don't think every stall out location, is "the spot" location. I think there are a lot of stall out spots, for individual coyotes or pairs etc

put it like this- we are all going to a convention- how we go, and where we stop, will be random in the way its unpredictible to others, but not to that individual. So if I wanted to see that person (or trap that coyote)- where would I go?

and yes, by setting up those secondary locations, that have all the attributes of a true stall out spot- somewhere where he lays up, scopes things out, spends "relaxed" time- you should be able to catch them quicker there, then on THEIR individual travel routes...and most of us do.

and that happens to me too often- stall outs aren't hard to find, multiple territory stall outs ARE- at least for me

[bogio]

Female caught in backup set just outside of circle coyote came from yesterday. Second double front footer at this location. Pretty weak from the shoulders forward. Skinned, washed, hanging in front of a fan. Tomorrow will decide if she gets to become a Canadian or not.

Tman wrote:

"I also have come to believe, that where he encounters that set, is the determining factor in how he works that set."

I too am coming to that believe this fact.