Coyote Sets

[seldom]

Aug 10, 2012 11:20:46 GMT -6 bogio said:

Something else that I found that was of great interest was this post from 1080:

"What you learn are certain things are innate and consistant.How you present a set,and WHERE is of utmost importance"

Purity ain't it!

[trappnman]

Everyone following this thread, should read that study.

if you are wondering about innate behaviors and how they are in use approaching stimuli-

this is the one to read

TC- not busting your balls, but curious as we seem to be on opposite pages in this discussion, so ask you to read that study and tell me what you think of it.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I have read that study a few times and notice what happens in that study lure versus urine, large stimuli versus medium and small in familiar areas. Early fall trapping is going to be more with familiar as your not getting into the dispersal yet in October you have pups that are broken aways from ma and pa but NO real shuffle at that time of year yet. Still in close proximity for the most part.

Look at his results versus others are their clear lines drawn?

Also notcie the different in his study in light versus darkness differances. Are you or I catching most of our coyotes in the light of day?

I used the human scent issue to show their nose is quite good and they need to be downwind to smell you or anything else period. They use that to their advanatage a majority of the time. If I open a bottle of skunk essance and your downwind are you going to smell that or my body odor stronger?

Lure gives off a scent cone as well, my POINT is to use the wind it is important more so than some think. Doubles and triples happen more often if sets are spaced well and coyote 2 and 3 can smell the offerings of the other 2 sets. There going to circle a caught coyote and they will end up down wind!

Weak stimuli is not as often investigated Really? If you could have one be the stronger of the two according to his study and others give me the olfactory being stronger than the visual every time. IMOC.

If a coyote is out hunting and traveling which they all do, and they can smell something of "interest" they are going to investigate, that response changes with the offering and the coyote for various reasons we all under stand that, if I put a "gift" under their noses more often than not I will catch them. Anyone should.

Odds yeh you bet better places to pound more coyotes than others that was out last discussion.

A trench set is 100% visual and works, I get the visual thing. Most are something they "come upon" from a closer distance. I have never been a big hole fan as too much stuff going on at times can cause ME issues.

If in the right place it will be investigated better because of repitition and a positive result from past experiances.

I have used larger visuals but not Directly at the set with excellent results I use their tendancies and the WIND for my set that is far,far less flashy than the large visual itself. The large item will be seen by many different critters, I don't want all of them in my traps I want "the" coyotes or coyotes only many times. I could tell you fo some large Visuals and you would laugh but in the end this ended catching problematic coyotes and more importantly I learned from these experiments.

Studies are great but so is trial and error and critical thinking on the why and how things came together. You can take a large visual that creates a neophobic reaction and make it work for you at the set proper as well.

Read where he wrote NO neophobic response to olfactory stimuli and that the largest stimuli being the most visable from a distance also resulted in the strongest neophobia. The harris study also showed the most from the largest and not the smaller.

I have found this to work better for me when I state I like a coyote to find things with their nose first the majority of the time. Snaring and large draw stations aside. Different time and places put's those odds in everyones favor. Dead of winter coyotes in many areas can become carrion dependant.

Bogio I to have followed that same thought process as boddicker/Miranda and added a few twist but a nice walk thru is a good basis for many sets, as least worked for me alot of times. Make the entry and exit easy and make the pan the spot to step. Guide them with the body and nose when one can.

[freepop]

Aug 10, 2012 7:21:36 GMT -6 trappnman said:

and by recalling observations on the line over the years, location versus location vis a vis success rates both in time and animals, and then add what the research shows and what 1080 has albeit slowly gotten through my head (and I'm sorry, but what 1080 did in IN, is ASTOUNDING in what it accomplished in that time frame, basically cold rolling) -

is that yes, using coyote behaviors, giving them what they want where they want it, is going to give you a much higher success rate (both in time & animals) then setting for those same animals in other locations. and yes, of course you WILL catch coyotes in those other locations as well.
.

Since you brought that up, could you refresh my memory? I believe from 1080's numbers that they averaged about one coyote per 10 miles, in another thread. Is that correct?

[trappnman]

You can take a large visual that creates a neophobic reaction and make it work for you at the set proper as well.


yes, I agree

Lure gives off a scent cone as well,

lure doesn't leave a scent cone, unless under perfect conditions. Lure has an odor to it- that odor, acts like any other scent when exposed to air- it moves.

and it moves out in strings or fingers or tendrils or what ever you want to call it- it moves, changes, disappears and reappears.

WATCH how a hound trails- nothing will give you the same perspcetive of scent as watch a hound.

Why? because a hound tells you exactly where that scent is and is not. He tells you- you don't have to guess. and what hes telling you, is that hound has more losses, than successes.

that scent indeed is not a scent cone, but strings- strings twisted by wind, temp, damp or dry conditions & on and on.

and thats on an animal leaving scent behind him willy nilly. If scent cones existed, then hounds would have 100% success rates, or near to it- because he would always BE in that scent cone, it would always be in front of him.

so again, how much of a scent trail, is a few drops of lure down a hole, going to extend out from that set?

because just smelling something is meaningless- there needs to be a way back- consider it like bread crumbs- a trail of bread crumbs showed H & G the way, until that trail was interrupted

so finding a bread crumb here and there, does us no good- if Hansel would have painted a line on the ground, leaving a continuous trail, he would have found his way home.

For scent to work for us as trappers, we need to provide that solid line.

And we need to get the coyote to the point where he can follow that line.

if I put a "gift" under their noses more often than not I will catch them

that brings up two points #1- what do you mean by under their nose? Nose into hole? 5 feet away? 25 yards away? more, less?

and #2- do you think that all coyotes that are aware of a scent, will work that set, no matter where it is located (in other words, if they come by you have 90% chance of catching them)

looking at pont #1- O'G has good lures he uses, right? and I'm guessing based on his book, that he uses these lures down a hole.

but he also many times has lure away from the set and up high, copious amounts of call lure.

Why do you think that would be?

that answer to me is simple- and says much for the long distance ability of lure in a hole-

the lure in a hole, is (in my interpretation anyways) to pinpoint his attention once there.

because lure in a hole, just doesn't have that long range calling effect so many think it does.

Which is yet another reason, to use large amounts of lure- the more you have, more & stronger scent tendrils will be extended.

point #2- and thats the crux of the matter, is that where a set is determines how its worked- that a coyote aware of the same set, the same lures in two different locations, is going to work them differently. or not at all.

this discussion has branched off into two directions.

your position seems to be that if hes aware of it (under his nose) then the chances of catching him are the same, no matter where the set is located and where he encounters it.

I used to think and believe that 100%. I've come 180 on that, and now believe that where the set is, makes all the difference in the world as to how and more importantly if he works it.

the second point of discussion is simply this- how close does a coyote need to be to lured set, to become aware of it?

my opinion, is pretty darn close. Almost on top of it in many typical trapping conditions.

but a visual is always there-

and yes, set on the exact location- but lets be real- coyotes aren't running the same patterns night after night, not travelling the same pathways or indeed, even following the pathways.

leave a set in long enough, and sure, like my female last month, they will eventually find it. Maybe.

the question posed to me is not how many coyotes am I catching-but how many am I missing?

I see your viewoint, indeed it WAS my own viewpoint-

[trappincoyotes39]

I don't use the large visual at the set or it being the set though the differance is sublte at the set and using the wind and smells to work for me and the large stimulus away from the set.


human scent has a cone, lure odors do not? Wind and humdity, high or low and time of day hot air rises cold air sinks. plays into a scent cone doesn't matter what it is that cone is wider or narrower depending on wind and humidity.

The call lure is the same ol factory smell at the set or 10 ft high that doesn't change, what changes it is putting it up in the air currents, hot air rises-cold air sinks...........

It all depends on how you work the dog, take a pointer and run him cross wind on upland birds and have the majority of those go undetected, bring that same pointer in so he is working into the wind and he will find plenty of those birds. I have been behind some great pointers and I have watched other dogs and owners run the same crp with dogs and do very little and I have run them with good dogs and good handlers and the differance of points and birds taken night and day. Wiemers and flushers go by many birds that pointers take! The pointer works with it's nose far more.

Anything live puts off scent be it us, a bird, a rabitt etc.

Back to the few drops thing again........................

Tman I'm talking feett from the line of travel not 30 yrds under his/her nose is under their nose and don't think for a second that if using the wind they can't smell it down the hole or on the bush or under the cow pie. I have seen reaction to lure in the snow plenty of times and have a good understanding of what they can smell and how far away. You will find no better of a test than a getter burried under 6-10" of snow and a coyote digging down to it. The issue remains is it frost locked up or can it fire for the end result. All done with wind and lure/bait odor and your not getting copious amounts of either on a getter head. The differance is the agression due to time of year, not that they can't smell the lure. You have to offer it to them in a way the wind works for YOU!

I have called in coyotes on a full stomach with distress sounds and have trapped coyotes with lures/baits.

I have seen the ability of a buzzard with large baits flying around 60-100 ft above ground find what I have had in a large hole all done by air currents and their nose and is a buzzards nose better than a coyote?

I guess I'm good at where to put my sets, I get your point of location of the set and use it alot but to me that is second nature. So NO setting a trap in the middle of a paved road would not be a great place LOL.

Yet am I going to state that a travel route is a poor location the majority the time for multiple coyotes?

Nope won't state that, as along that travel route will be a few places to catch many of those coyotes. You can call them mini stall outs or what ever name one wants to give them. I have given past referance to these more choice locations on that travel route. Some have more visuals than others and some no need to have a large visual what so ever and produce results.

I understand your trying to take more coyotes in less locations with less over all equipment strung out on said property's. That is the goal for all of us. Saddles are great areas and offer that stall out location yet, many are travel ways for many coyotes entering or exiting the geographic locations.

Timing,location and set construction all come into play to maximize results IMOC.

I think are main differances on the subject of set construction come from I pay attention to the wind and location and you give the wind not a second thought and so the large visual thing and alot of urine plays out better for you!

Moving on from this thread, hope others will inject their thoughts on this topic.

[trappnman]

human scent has a cone, lure odors do not?

no, human scent does not have a cone design either

you are halkf righto nte wind TC- wen on atravel way- I've oft staed "I pay no attention to the wind"

and why would I?

I usually have 2 sets, one on each side of the travelway- so its doesn't MATTER wind direction vis a vis being AWARE of the set.

I do look at wind under the "new to me" system.

[seldom]

For those who blinked last night reading this thread, Ol Waylon has these words for you!

And now they're gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone
Cryin' won't bring them back
The more that you cry the faster the thread
Flies farther on down the track................Jack!
;D ;D ;D