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Post by trappnman on Jan 26, 2011 8:57:34 GMT -6
I say the bmps overall, and the coon specificaly, have done little beyond their own hype, to help trapping
I stated:
TC- we debated all this many times before-
I refrain from talking about the bmps, because they are useless
but when someone that DOES have a vested interest, past or present, continues ot proclaim them the best things since sex, I'll respond by saying at least some of the bmps are GIGO
the coon bmos are the most flawed "study" I've ever read- they are GARBAGE
helped trapping in public eye-
why do you continue thinkig that SAYING things are so, actually makes them so?
the bmps are a little toy, that the game depts can trot out and play with from time to time
nothing more than that-
again, place them on the shelf by the myth videos for all the good either does or do
you have hijacked this thread enough- you want to debate bmps- there is place for that-
TC responds:
OK then can you move this thread to the BMP's? I feel it fits better their as well! I'll be back later to day to make another response. Also best thing since sex? No not at all. But to minimize what has been accomplished is incorrect to! A toy? No a tool to promote trapping with data. My time spent on BMP's was not mandated but by choice. They had zero effect on my income as I would be paid either way. I wanted to be apart for the betterment of trapping and to have input.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 26, 2011 16:34:34 GMT -6
Yep seems like you and I are the only ones here tman LOL. Yes the BMP's have allowed non trapping joe public to see trappers and trapping in a better light! To me and others that means alot for the future of fur trapping and ADC work!
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Post by garman on Jan 26, 2011 18:06:48 GMT -6
Gosh I was hoping for a bigger battle! LOL Anyway, I look up the BMP's I can find hardly anything worth reading, may not have found it yet, I would like to see the actual study info. as well as the constant in the experiment! Also why certain traps were picked, and not more traps picked. It sure seems to me a waste of money on testing certain traps when there were several studies testing alot of the same things before, like the rubber jaw trap studies done earlier. That information could have been used, they used several traps for comparison then anyway
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 26, 2011 19:39:35 GMT -6
not on as many species garmin the rubber jaws tetsed I believe where mainly on coyotes and before even victor switched pad material I believe. Since then you have jake traps and a few others. Go to this link www.fishwildlife.org/index.php?section=furbearer_management&activator=27Traps are chosen by popularity of style and design and trap size for many speices. More traps picked? You have many species to test for it is a large under taking doing the species and even 3 trap styles per test session. More are looked at all the time.
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Post by humptulips on Jan 26, 2011 21:16:12 GMT -6
I will say this, maybe you like them maybe you don't but it is probably the only way we will ever get trapping back in this state (WA). If it works you'll hear nothing but praise from this corner of the country.
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Post by garman on Jan 27, 2011 8:59:36 GMT -6
my point being tc, it was not that great of testing, did not cover many traps, nor in the literature did it cover exact guidelines on the animals Ex: What was exactly eastern/western coyote deciding factors or what river system boundary distinguishes. Another ex: why would a 20lb average coon from the northern plains have the same bmp's as the 7-8lb avg. southern coon. Where/how were the traps set... all makes a difference, but none was discussed from what I could see, and that is not very good scientific process. But if it helps get trapping back in other states, if it helps continue and progress the sport then yes I agree, I will play the game.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 27, 2011 10:25:45 GMT -6
one thing that upsets me about the coon bmps- you COULD NOT have drawn up a protocal that induces chewing more, then if you would have tried to do so delibrately.
so much so, then one cannot help but conclude that the object was to eliminate in the future, legholds for coon.
and with the vested interest the various states have in the bmps- you can bet the farm that they WILL become law in many areas
step by step- te Mn dnr now lists a link to the bmps in the handbook as sentence #1-
and Mn was VERy invested i ntime andm oney i nthe bmps-
you think they are jsut going to let them fade away?
or do the right protocal?
sorry- i find thinking that to be pollyanish at best
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 27, 2011 16:18:29 GMT -6
Not many traps please explain? You have many species to get a go through before you can come back, remember many of the traps NOT tested that fit the same design and size criteria fit the BMP"s. What traps do you think are missing?
The guidlines for the coyote and fox where simple: all had the same chain setup, solid staked, use any type set you wish, traps where random placed, you had no control over what trap went to A set. All where necocropsy from a vet and damage noted. You used a dial caliper to measure compression of the foot between the jaws in mm.
The coyote BMP's where broken up because many of the states East of the Big river have jaw size restrictions for coyotes. So why test traps that are not legal in those areas, mainly because of domestics and perception of people. This would be a great question to ask those states why they limit trap size in the first place.
Sure there is a differance between a 20lb coon and a 7lb coon, but does every coon one catch even in Iowa go above 20 lbs? There are METHODS that can reduce damage, but the BMP's are testing the trap over a wide varity of trapping methods not just geographic specific ones. If your going to change the set constrcution to ensure less chewing are you testing the trap or the method? Where does science start and end then? One trapper may choose method A and another C what happens if C doesn't produce the welfare score of A? A big can of worms then.
The coon BMP"s had more time spent on them than any other. Remember to, the need for specialized training of such equipment is one thing on the list of criteria as well. You start getting into micro setting techniques for a better score then this does come into play.
The traps that have all passed are ones that where used in many areas and with many different sets and locations.
Printed from the BMP: Traps were selected for testing based on their relative use among trappers surveyed by IAFWA (now AFWA) in 1992 and 2004 and in consultation with wildlife biologists and expert trappers. Commonly used trap models and modifications and new, readily available designs that may improve animal welfare were given priority for testing. Experienced local trappers tested traps during regulated trapping seasons using daily trap checks to provide for consistent, repeatable and reliable data for the most accurate analysis possible. Technicians accompanied trappers and recorded data.Teams worked under field conditions throughout the United States during regulated trapping seasons. Wildlife veterinary pathologists examined captured animals for trap-related injuries using fullbody necropsies following international trap testing guidelines. A minimum of 20 specimens were examined for each trap evaluated.
Tman your conclusion is loose at best! No animal and No trap got more consideration than the standard 1.5 coil spring in any US BMP that is a fact. If the bottom line was to outlaw foot holds for coons then why did some pass? Taking that a step further at what point have you been hampered by the BMP"s for your coon trapping or anyone else? Easy to state the sky is going to fall or the sun will quit shining but none of it has happened.
Reread the introduction to BMP's and you will see they themselves state these are practical guidelines, I have never heard a single person involved say this is all a prelude to mandation of anything! The only time I could see such is those states that have lost trapping through the tried and failed practices of the past. I bet you would not hear a one of them in any state bemoaning the fact this is all we have to choose from to gain back the right to use foot traps and or coni bears in those states.
Fade away? NO they aren't going to fade away, they are there for the trapping and non trapping public to view and will be added to as time, funding and need dictait in the future. Becuase they are there and have been there now for years doesn't mean they become mandated or law. Again that is a state to state issue not an encompassing one, as ALL states have the right to control their furbearer species. Your statement can be turned the other way too, any state reguardless of the BMP's could with a ballot vote decide the outcome of trapping, so with NO BMP's we have seen what "can" happen and with BMP"s we "could" see it helping trappers. The positive outways the negatives we have seen prior to any BMP's!
There is also talk of the EU breaking apart and then I would like to see whre this all falls if or when this would happen. The bottom line is we will still have good and valuable data for animal welfare in reguards to trapping.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 28, 2011 6:48:09 GMT -6
some? ONE- a double jaw model that is worthless in dirt- IMNSHbeentheirdonethatO
bmps reverse any state yet? if so powerful, it sohuld be a shoein
you want bototm line- a THE PROTACAL CRITERIA WAS BULLSHITE any good coon man, knows that what wsa mandatory-
no entanglement cover, staked in open, 50% access to land (no entanglement land meaning BARE bank), no drowning, no holding in water-
and thats, now matter the breed and the age of the cow- BULL.
most of the coon trappers I know, the 10% that take 90% of the fur- either hold them in water or drown them. and there is a reason for that less chewing, more coon in the trap. to not only not TEST IT- but to forbid it from BEING TESTED- is ludicrious.
to say "testing traps not methods" is ludicrious both on its own, and compared to the way METHODS are used in the coyote bmps.
I talked to Hamilton several times- he had his mind set on certian protocal, and would not budge an inch. He did trappers no service on THAt issue
I'll go back and forth with you on this all day long if you desire............
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 28, 2011 8:42:19 GMT -6
There is more than 1 dbl jaw model that passed.
Tman they tried a few different protocols for coon. The protocols must also fit the other criteria as well.
Your opinion Tman, it is the trap is the key focal point! Methods in the Coyote BMP's what ever.
Drowning is not testable at this point at a cost worth it for end results.
The coon BMP's has effected you in what way? The coon bmp's has effected ANY coon trapper in what way. The future of coon bmp's continues on.
Easy to speak ill of a man dead and gone. He didn't have to take on the BMP he wanted to help trappers and trapping!
No sense going back and forth anymore you see the BMP's as a negative plenty see them as a positive and at worst neutral.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 28, 2011 9:26:11 GMT -6
not speaking ill of the man at all- so don't twist my words. but I'm also not going to LIE about what I was told.
you can dither about different protocals- but the main points thoughtout the testing were these:
1) no entanglement at all 2) no coon held in water- all water coon MUST have 50% access to land 3) Drowning was out of the question to even consider, since the Vet council was opposed to it
those are facts.
and the FACT is, Dave would not consider ANY coon bmp testing that did any of the 3 above.
I see the coon bmp as complete utter crap-
bmps mean what?
BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES
leave it to TC to define managment as TRAP
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 29, 2011 0:27:57 GMT -6
BMP's encompass alot in it's meaning, cattlemen use it and other groups, it is the main focus of "A" particular BMP that is IMPORTANT. This case it is the traps tested, not set construction.
Entanglement can lead to non operational swivels correct? Holding coon in water presents it's own issues on the welfare issue. Drowning has never been a part of the BMP's "IF" tested the cost and time to death standards would be very hard, surely you could see that.
Beaver and rats don't drowned they sufficate, other animals their lungs fill with water again back to the welfare standards.
Yet no one has taken away drowning for coons or any other critter have they? Nope.........
The money spent on this type of testing would surely cut deep into the budget, remember though BMP's are a living document and with funding who knows what could be on the horizon or if the EU breaks up as their has been talks of such it could mean many things to trappers in both CA and US. The bottom line is the data is still important and will always be there.
You honestly think those involved are out to cause a negative to trapping? You think some of the better minds haven't been involved? Much of this comes from meetings with EU and ways to fullfill the requirements and still have freedoms when it comes to trap selection. Some very good minds across the US have played a large role in all of this through the years.
If any trapping org wants to spend a little money on a guest speaker I would highly recommend Gordon Batcheller!!! Just to listen to him speak on the EU issue which he was a major part of and his history on the fur ban and the BMP's is very enlighting for sure, well worth the cost to get him there and do a Q&A!
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Post by bob brennan on Jan 29, 2011 6:39:49 GMT -6
canada has trap testing do they have more good traps available to them now or before? I dont think any anti thinks ANY trap testing is good unless it eliminates traps so what do people do we give up something. people who trap want to use what works best and most humane and they or other trappers can determine that best for the system and area. every year trappers are working on mods. and new traps and every year antis are working on ending trapping and any other outdoor sport. I think that if we find proven methods we need to share them with other trappers to help them trap more humanely and efficiantly. the bmps are kind of like eliminateing cars because they go in the ditch
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Post by bob brennan on Jan 29, 2011 7:18:37 GMT -6
way to many variables to do testing on traps example,soil type,bedding material, pan tension, spring strength, chain length, trap position in bed, depth of covering, type of covering, pan covers, steel screen, pan drop distance, swiveling, type of cover(grass, cactus, etc. ) temperature, moisture, drags, entanglement, stakeing, and many M A N Y MORE. and then you have the guy inturpreting all of the data. getting a drivers license doesnt make some one a good driver and the best handleing car on the race track isnt the best trapping rig. if you see some one you can help with trapping humanely offer advice everyone has an opinion example bob w.and 39 totaly opposite both successfull
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2011 7:26:17 GMT -6
exactly my point sawyer- methods were foremost in the testing -there is no way the could NOT be
Entanglement can lead to non operational swivels correct? Holding coon in water presents it's own issues on the welfare issue. Drowning has never been a part of the BMP's "IF" tested the cost and time to death standards would be very hard, surely you could see that.
never had a swivel fouled yet with entanglement= guess its something one needs to do, to know.
not looking at drowning HAD NOTHING NOTHING, NOTHING TO DO WITH TIME, ETC
it was brought up as something a LOT of coon trapsper do- and it WAS SHOT DOWN 100% BY THE VETS COUNCIL as INHUMANE
can't tell you about beaver- but if you think rats don't drown, you are WRONG=
toss a live rat in a trap into deep water and the EVIDENCE is plain to see
the reason rats/beaver can be drOwned, according to tHe VETS COUNCIL is that they are "water" animals and DON'T HAVE THE STRESS FROM BEING FORCED INTO WATER
again, direct from Dave
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2011 7:28:12 GMT -6
Do I honestly think that the makers of the coon protocal have a vested interest in removing footholds for coon> YES I DO!
kind of like seeing someone cross the street, then asking me if their purpose was to get ot the other side-
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Post by mustelameister on Jan 29, 2011 7:37:55 GMT -6
Drowning has never been a part of the BMP's "IF" tested the cost and time to death standards would be very hard, surely you could see that.
Should have been part of the BMPs. 'Coon at the end of a drowner system have little self inflicted damage in my experiences.
During my short exposures to folks involved with the BMP program, there seemed to be a "wall of resistance" to any submersion testing system except for the aquatic mammals.
I agree with Steve on this 'coon issue. The BMPs do stand for Best Management Practices, and not Best Trap Practices. Management encompasses much more than just the trap.
There must be BMPs for forestry management. Do they simply list a number of saws that perhaps cut through the trunk of a tree in X amount of time? Or are there sections which cause one to take into consideration regrowth rates, regional soil types, rainfall, climate, etc?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2011 7:41:36 GMT -6
added to that- coon held 100% in water, not drowned, show NO chewing.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 29, 2011 12:50:55 GMT -6
drowning to even be discussed for welfare standards would need a time to death standard. You can't have a coon held on 3 ft of cable in 2 ft of water versus a 6ft cable and 4 ft of water, drowning takes on different shapes and time to death as you change all of these things.
Tman just because you think it so doesn't make it true! If you think anyone who has a hand in the BMP testing wanted foot holds for coons outlawed well your a conspiracy theorist is all I can say.
Pan tension was addressed on the BMP's I was involved in and the Sullivan pan gauge is what we used. All traps tested had the same chain and shock spring setup, solid staked well means solid staked. Pan drop,cover yadda,yadda, I have a feeling it would have little over all score change in the end result. Do we want these done with that much info? Who wants to run the budget dry in the process? The necropsy where done and showed and documented all damage using the same protocol on ALL traps tested. You can make these as complicated as one wishes, 24 hrs heck let's look at foot damage at 12 hrs, etc,etc.
Then lets get all states to charge a 20.00 sur charge for trapping license fees and all money can go for further indepth BMP's. Sound good?
The nay sayers will always find a gripe to the BMP's, that is human nature to pick apart something you do not like or don't contribute to.
Please read from page 6 of the introduction to BMP's.
Submersion Trapping Systems Submersion trapping systems are frequently used for furbearers that are found in or near waterways. These systems consist of traps, equipment and techniques that allow or cause furbearers, when trapped, to quickly and irreversibly submerge until death occurs. Submersion systems can employ bodygrip traps, cage traps, cable devices or foothold traps of the appropriate size and weight. Traps are either set underwater at a depth that prevents the captured animal from reaching the surface, or they are set in shallow water near shore and attached with a one-way sliding lock to a cable anchored in deep water. The animal welfare performance standard for submersion trapping systems is that the equipment must prevent the animal from surfacing once it has submerged. Performance standards for submersion trapping systems are comparable to those used for restraining and killing devices.
It used to be those against complained becuase it was never addressed it has been, now the complaint seems to be it should have been tested at a very high expsense to testing. There is give and take otherwise as the past has shown us only the taking of trapping in some states. Time to death would have to be a measure of welfare for submersion sets. No different than time to death for kill type traps is. Because both are meant to cause death!!!!
Here are BMPs on cattle read through it and you will see not meant to be set in stone but guidlines and change as nothing is a constant except the cattle pollutant, or the traps! That is what is being tested the constant, the trap!
Tman wrote:never had a swivel fouled yet with entanglement= guess its something one needs to do, to know.
Your idea of entanglement is going to be different than other trappers in other geographic locations it is and would be. How micro should the BMP's be broken down to? Should we have state BMP's then let's all pony up the money for such.
Sawyer you can not compair the BMP"s here in the US with the route Canada took, apples and oranges. 2 different directions for the common good of the people and wildlife in those areas!
Sawyer how have the BMP's effected you in a negative way?
Tman please explain those involved in the BMP's that are looking to outlaw foot traps working on the BMP's? Far too easy to make assumptions isn't it?
I have heard for the last 7 years BMP's are going to be forced on people, they serve No purpose, they will cause less trapping to take place and will limit what we can use, has any of the above taken place in the US? I know the answer!
Ask those who live in states that have lost foot trapping and kill type traps, far easier to loose than to get back! You will spend far more moeny trying to reverse a decision like this than being pro active and having data to make ones points. Remember who the majority of Joe public trust the most!!!!! The very people being informed from this info and taking part in the process!!!! WB do not like to make staements without data to back up what they state, these BMP's have been good in that reguard no doubt about that! Before their was little to nothing when talking welfare issues and traps.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2011 14:07:53 GMT -6
assumptions? what assumptions?
I made no such- I either expressed an opinion, or expressed a fact
the fact was- that the coon protocol was flawed.
I call it a fact for this reason- that protocol was worst case scenario for chewing. no cover? bare staked traps? land access in water? no drowning?
I mean come on- we could have saved all the trouble and money, by just saying everything failed dismally, and called it a day
I don't care, in any way, what the combined knowledge of coon trapping present or not present on that committee was- what came out of that committee is all that is important to me.
and btw- what you posted in the bmp introduction (I realize the Great Expense!!!!) were your own words) doesn't address the point.
and if you would read it as addressed- drowning slides for rats ALLOW them to reemerge in most cases. this i know for a fact- a rat is not like a beaver, where it instantly heads to the bottom immediately. The marks in sand, light gravel tell that story about rats.
and yet you tout is as, what...........good?
and as addressed, it does STILL not allow drowning rigs for coon. I'll flat out guarantee you, that ANY coon trapper using slides or rods- knows that you will not take them under in one full move.
Because-and no, not because of a "great expense" at the time it was discussed- but because the COMMITTEE as a whole- blame or don't blame whoever you want- declared that DROWNING COON WAS INHUMANE or as I dubbed it at the time animane.
but the real point, the important point, was footholds should have been tested, the issue was raised on several fronts- the BMP committee- in large part but not entirely because- of the Vets council stating unequivocally NO WAY
and lets move beyond the DROWNING point- lets look at HOLDING THEM IN WATER point-
nah- why, that's too inhumane! sayth the mighty committee.
thats the facts.
and it doesn't take an oldtimer to know- if I got water- I can hold coon without chewing- if I got deeper water, I can put that coon on the bottom without chewing.
and it doesn't take a genius, to figure out if I don't have water...............
and gee..I don't have trees.................
then maybe those methods might not work- but to state that 1.5 footholds ARE INHUMANE for trapping coon- is just foolish. and THAT'S what the coon bmps did.
the above is my opinion, based on a LOT of coon in all kinds of conditions and all kinds of weather. btw- coon running here a bit- picked up a few this am- one had access to land- you know the story- my fault.
bmps focused on TRAPS in the coon study- not methods. They included methods in the coyote bmp- and I'm not going to debate you on it- they did, and anyone reading them can easily see that. The coyote bmp, btw, was IMHO a good one. It combined common methods, with mechanicals.
and my opinion- is that eventually, bmps will be used as law in states. I can see it happening in Mn knowing the people involved.
the foothold was outlawed in Canada for coon- IMO not much of a leap.
but I made no assumptions.
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