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Post by Freak( Jim V.) on Jul 21, 2008 19:10:22 GMT -6
The perfect fur gun. What caliber , what builder , barrel , trigger , and the list goes on.I have used many , many stock subcalibers and now am thinking of going to just one caliber for most work. I am talking from fox to coyotes and all in between. I have been a long time lover of the 17 remington , but since the coyote takeover have been leftdown a few times with not so perfect , but still should have done it shots. Problem with it is. The 20 gr Vmax bullet is absolutely perfect for fox , very few passthrus and minimal fur damage , BUT not so perfect for coyotes. I have had enough drop in their tracks and then pull the old Im out of here game on me to know enough is enough. The 25 gr hollow point is usually very adequate for coyote , but can cause a very nasty mess with fox. I do not reload anymore so stuck with factory or custom loaded by someone else loads. IF there was a bullet that was readily available to do both then I would just stick with my 17 , but am seriously considering a change. It is hard to know who si gonna show up 100% of the time when calling and usually ends up with a fox showing up when i have the hollowpoints in or vice versa.Hence the dilemna, and it aint a big one , just looking for options. 20 tactical and 19 calhoon have been getting a little attention just because they are ther , but am open to suggestions here , but with the need for the maker to also offer custom loaded ammo.
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Post by Furhvstr on Jul 21, 2008 20:15:41 GMT -6
OH MAN, not this one again.
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Post by markymark on Jul 21, 2008 20:31:07 GMT -6
Spend a few hours here. www.6mmbr.com I have always loved the 17BR overbore yes, laser beam you bet. I have a 19 Badger on the way from Calhoon, never fooled with one yet. If you were to get an Arbor Press with wilson hand dies, hand primer and a scale you could have a nice little setup. This guy here came up with a nice 17 www.rmvh.com But don't listen to me I have a new love this week 17 Ackley Hornet in a Cooper. On caliber I never hear about on this site is the 22Bench rest. That little fire plug is a shooter.
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Post by Furhvstr on Jul 21, 2008 21:13:08 GMT -6
Love my 22BR. Despite my best efforts it doesn't shoot as well as I expected it to. But it is a sweet rifle. Marky Mark I have a full varmint Cooper in .17 ack. Hornet if your'e interested. .19 Badger is the Chit. .19 Calhoon is great also. Calhoon rifles shoot superbly.
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Post by qwagoner on Jul 21, 2008 22:15:26 GMT -6
That is a question that has pledged predator hunters for years. It also adds a little fun and a new sense of adventure but in the end it is like finding the end of the rainbow. LOL Like you said I think that the 17 is a very nice fox gun but falls a little short in the coyote department especially with the little V-maxes. When you move up in bullet weight you run the risk of more pelt damage on the fox but you are getting closer to a sufficient coyote round.
The 17 Rem, the 204 and even the 22-250 and swift can produce some spectacular kills and they do so with blistering speed. Speed kills but the faster and more frangible rounds have there own set of problems. They can and do many times seam to just put predators to sleep but other times it can look like they were hit with an RPG. What makes the speed demons desirable is that because of bullet design and velocity the bullet will not exit the animal much of the time. All the energy of the bullet is transferred into the animal causing tremendous hydraulic shock, which in turn produces “cavitation” inside of the animal. It is all fine and good if the hydraulic shock and cavitation is contained inside of the animal but if the animals skin ruptures during the bullets impact you will have a mess on your hands as I am sure you already know. LOL
In my country I am up against potentially long range shooting and am nearly limited to coyotes. So for this kind of situation I want a fast and frangible. Because of the long-range opportunities I get I enjoy the better external ballistics of the .220 over other suitable rounds. In your case where I presume that your shot opportunities are usually within a couple hundred yards I would take a good look at a plane vanilla .222 Remington. You will get a little damage on the fox but you will not get the “splatter” effect you would get by using something like a 204 Ruger. With the right bullet it will do to predators what a big game bullet is designed to do on big game. It will give you the penetration you need and cut a nice path in the process. If you can “cut the path” through the right organs you should loose very few animals.
Hope this helped!
Good hunting.
Q,
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Post by lb on Jul 21, 2008 23:05:55 GMT -6
I have seen this question for years. The topic starter seems in genuine need of quality advice and of course, he gets plenty. Then the responders start criticizing each other....at length.
But, lost in the dust is the fact that it's not really a legit question, but maybe not in this case? The guy is in PA, probably more opportunities on fox than coyotes and with all the woods we have heard about, probably the shots will be at moderate ranges?
So, maybe quinton is on target? A triple deuce with a good bullet (the real question) might do the trick over all the latest chamberings with magic sounding names?
My buddy Vic down in McNeal uses 17s and 19s on mostly coyotes, so in the hands of a decent shot who picks his spots carefully, a 19 calhoon does impressive work.
I will relate a quick story. About three or four years ago I was hunting with Victor and we made a stand in a wide open area and a coyote came in off my left shoulder crossed in front of me and I shot him broadside with an 80 grain Speer spitzer in a 6mm Remington.....and that coyote took off. Rattled, I took a shot that missed and Vic, who had him straight away, rolled him at about 250 over wide open flat land; just a yucca here and there.
That was one of a handfull of animals lifetime that totally surprised me, running much further than a heartshot animal is supposed to go? We brought him back to camp and at least ten people saw the big hole just behind the shoulder, and the little .19 at the base of his neck. Nobody could offer an explanation for what happened. Of course..... I'll never live it down.
I guess you can go bigger, but that doesn't always mean they get killed deader?
and, just as often as not, the original poster ignores all that wonderful advice and winds up buying a 243! <sigh>
Good hunting. LB
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Post by qwagoner on Jul 22, 2008 13:44:58 GMT -6
I try to base my views on averages and on average I am betting your 6mm will kill coyotes at more angles more consistently than the 19 will or a 17 would either. I have killed coyotes dead where they stood with a .22 long rifle and a 17 hmr also but despite what my eyes told me I am not going to hang up my swift.
I will relate a story also. My late uncle was a passionate elk hunter and all he ever used was a .243 Winchester with 100gr spire point bullets. For his birthday one year his boys got him a new 300 Wetherby. That elk season as expected he used the 300 and on the morning of the second day he shot his bull of a lifetime and watched it run over a saddle never to be seen again. To the day he died he felt that the 243 was a superior elk round because he had never lost an elk with it. LOL So who am I to argue. I have never shot an elk. LOL
Maybe Jim should stick with the .17 and the 20gr V-Max because of the frequency of the fox he will likely be calling. And if and when a coyote comes in he may just need to pick his shots the best he can and hope for the best. After all on other sights you will find plenty of people that think if God made a better coyote round than the .17 HMR he kept it to himself!!! LOL The .17 Remington may just be over kill? LOL
The perfect gun is a rhetorical question but I do not know of any coyote hunter that hasn’t scrolled through the ballistic charts in the back of there reloading manuals or plaid out innumerable combinations on there ballistic programs. I think we all have asked ourselves that very question a time or two.
I ran the numbers and looked at my most common hunting situations and landed on the swift. If I were in PA I would start things out with a .222 or a .223 and use a 55gr bullet. Pass throughs on fox would be common but I think the damage would be minimal. On coyotes you would get the occasional pass through but with that heavy of bullet you are ensured better penetration than you would with a lighter faster bullet. In some cases penetration trumps rapid expansion.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Post by lb on Jul 22, 2008 15:11:39 GMT -6
That failure was because of lazyness. I never liked those 80gr. Speer handloads, but they were all I had, and sitting there, ready to go; and I didn't feel like loading something better. Of course, that's why they were there, I was unimpressed with the terminal performance and had never used them up.
But, I am in complete agreement on heavy bullets that pass through. This "blow up inside" crap doesn't work all the time. There is nothing worse than losing a well hit animal, due to poor bullet performance.
And, by the way, that coyote was dead, he just didn't know it. We had both seen the hit and would have tracked him down, because there's no doubt he would have been laying out there, somewhere(?).....had Vic (I mean, Chile Rojo) not stopped him, as he did.
Good hunting. LB
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Post by Freak( Jim V.) on Jul 22, 2008 16:51:14 GMT -6
Pretty much hoped it didnt turn into a typical BS post and it didnt. that is why I asked it on here. Pretty good bunch of guys with lots of real knowledge not a bunch of rehashers quoting everybody elses opinion cause it worked on one animals that their brothers girlfriends uncles sister shot. Marky , you suck , you just put me onto another waste of my valuable time reading through all that info on that site. I seem to remember someone , I think Mercer L, talking about cats and the 20 or 19 not doing excessive damage , but more than enough for most coyote kills. Pretty much just should find time to reload some heavier bullets for my 17(but there aint a real big choice) or pay someone to load em for me to find a decent compromise maybe. Just want an overall solid hitter ina furfriendly multispecies caliber/load. Am I asking too much? LOL I was seriously thinking of maybe selling off a few subcaliber stock guns to pay for a custom in the 20 or 19 is why I originally asked the question. I have my 223s in the AR platform , which we cant use here in Pa , but will get used well out of state. 17 rems are great but just the dang bullet selection sucks.Would think if they offered like a 28-35 grainer in a ballistic tip running around 3500, might just be an overall furkiller without too much oversplatter on small stuff and too many runaways on bigger stuff.
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Post by SteveCraig on Jul 22, 2008 17:44:24 GMT -6
All excellent posts for sure.
Guys, After 40+ years of searching, I do believe I have found the perfect FUR gun for fox,cats, and coyotes. I have tried every conceivable loading for the 222, and it still cuts a grey fox in half at close range when you have it set to kill cats and coyotes. But the little 221 Fireball does it all FOR ME! 42 gr HP Calhoun bullets, and 40gr V-Max. It will flatten coyotes to 200 yards with no problem. I know it will kill cats past 250 with great consistancy, and not tear a fox in half at 15 yards. For an eastern all around, I feel it would be just right for greys,reds, and coyotes. I have had no problems with it killing those big old Indiana coyotes either, but most all shot were under 100 yards. It is now the only gun I reach for when I know I have the chance of anything coming in. When after coyotes only, I still carry my 22/250 or the 243. But Dang!......I do love that Fireball.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jul 22, 2008 19:44:22 GMT -6
Can the 222 be downloaded to fireball velocities with the same results?
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Post by FWS on Jul 22, 2008 19:58:40 GMT -6
Yes, easily. And both usually have a 1-14" twist so there's no practical difference in a 42gr. bullet fired at similar velocities. I used the 37 and 42gr Calhoon DHP's in a .222 Rem. reduced load using Blue Dot for ground squirrels for years, for a reduced noise load. Killed squirrels fine and didn't blow up gray fox. CZ makes their 527 in .221 Fireball and .222 Rem., you need one of each.
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Post by Freak( Jim V.) on Jul 23, 2008 6:07:50 GMT -6
Marky , along the lines of what Steve Craig said that Calhoun Badger looks remarkably simular ballistic wise. I may just buy one of them in the kevlar and be done with it.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jul 23, 2008 7:11:40 GMT -6
FWS, What is the powder charge and velocity for the load you are using? Is accuracy comparable to full power loads?
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Post by Furhvstr on Jul 23, 2008 7:52:59 GMT -6
The primary and the set trigger function are both adjustable on the CZ. Between the set trigger and the top shelf barrels Calhoon puts on his guns hitting stuff is real easy. No BS but the 19-223 and both Badgers I got off him shoot lights out. As good as any of my customs which most cost me double the 19s. My heavy 6mm BR probably the only one that out shoots them. I used to be a 17 guy for fur taking and I still like my 17s but the performance of the 19s has been for me head and shoulders above the years I spent with the 17 rem and Mach IV. One thing not getting talked about much is the rifling on the 19s. The construction including the depth of the cut on the rifling is better and deeper than the 17. This and Jims coated bullets eliminate the fouling problems associated with the 17s. My Badger ammo is loaded with the heavier jacketed 32 grainers intended for the .19-223. This has worked very well for me and my cat hunting with my shots between 50 and 220 yds most often at night. The accuracy of those rifles and that set trigger puts fur on the ground. Shot some foxes with it and it seems to hit them a little hard. Head shots removes most of their heads and body shots require too much sewing. Those little suckers are just so small. I try and get them with the shotgun. The Badger takes down coyoytes no problem but I wouldn't call it a good coyote cartridge. A little undersized for calling in open country. 19-223 or 17 rem would be a better choice if I guy had sub-caliber intentions. With coyotes I'm more in the LB neighborhood. I want them dead on the ground so I can get to the next stand. Three months out of the year my truck has a day gun and a night gun in the rack.
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Post by markymark on Jul 23, 2008 7:57:53 GMT -6
Here's another thaught, buy some Burger Match bullets and vermint Bullets all the same grain. The difference is the J4 jacket thickness. Piont of impact will be the same "it is in my 222 and 223"
22gr of 748 will get you about 2500 feet with a 40 grain bullet. You can go to 25grs that will put you at about 3000fps.
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Post by lb on Jul 23, 2008 13:43:41 GMT -6
Much ink expended over the years, but when everybody has a different and unique goal, consensus is elusive. So, we will have many answers, none particularly wrong, yet none that will put the debate to rest in the forseeable future.
A compromise. Is it better to have a marginal cartridge that won't kill a few animals, now and then? Or, is it better to anchor an animal and then hope for the best, in terms of repairable damage? For me the answer is in bankable foot pounds for the larger animals, and a pass-through on the lightly constructed cats and fox, but at the same time, a little more skill, than luck, on bullet placement.
Quinton already explained his approach. Hammer them dogs, and at the same time, use what I have always advocated, the "bag of golf clubs" approach. Which is not a copout; but a realistic solution to an unsolvable problem. Apparently, he is using a 17HMR and a 22 rimfire for some applications? If a 3 wood would solve the problem, we wouldn't need thirteen more. Sure, an 8 iron can do a lot, but can it sail over a 200 yard water hazzard?
I can see a perfect solution for gray fox and a perfect solution for close in bobcat and her name is 12 gauge, so now what? A combo gun? Makes multiples difficult, for one thing. See what I mean, it will drive you nuts, if you must find the perfect answer? Just pick your dream gun with your eyes wide open because there is always somebody, somewhere that will alert you to it's shortcomings if you don't see it.
Downloading a 222 to 221 performance levels? Great. But, just in case..... jack the light load out, and insert the hot load and don't worry about the change in zero. However, in most cases, one gun, one load makes a lot of sense.
Cleared things up for ya? lol
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Post by SteveCraig on Jul 23, 2008 14:03:46 GMT -6
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Post by Furhvstr on Jul 23, 2008 19:04:33 GMT -6
This is what you can expect from the Badger. Might as well scared them to death. No need for sewing. Two quick stitches at most. Less time in the shed equals more time in the hills. These two were taken on the same stand at about 80 yds out. They took it square in the chest. If their standing I think the chest is the way to go but any other position, head shot.
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Post by Freak( Jim V.) on Jul 23, 2008 22:17:28 GMT -6
Mercer , do you buy the preloads from Calhoun or roll your own?and when you are talking fox , you are talking greys I presume? I am talking reds which i think my still work out mainly for the badger. Shotgun is the night gun around here. Probably should be happy for all the more runaways I have had with the 17rem , but just happend a couple times in a row last year and that got under my skin. Thanks for all the replies. guess i gotta make a call now.
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