richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Apr 30, 2007 9:06:08 GMT -6
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Post by lb on Apr 30, 2007 10:35:32 GMT -6
Rich, I feel your pain. I have been offering the same advice, for years, based on my personal experiences. What they want from a high velocity bullet (small entrance, no exit) just isn't in the cards. They seem to think every animal, at every distance, and every angle and shot placement...... wiill produce the same results? <sigh> Where do you start?
I don't have a 100% solution for no damage and certain bang/flops. The best, most consistant performance seems to be from heavier bullets that don't open up on coyotes, specifically, I use a 65 grain Berger match bullet in .224". Some rifles would not stabilize that bullet due to the twist or the case capacity. Another example, I use a 100 grain BT in 25 caliber. Both produce very acceptable exits, hopefully the size of a quarter, sometimes less? But, there is a dead coyote out there, not a blood trail.
But going in the other direction poses some problems. As I mentioned, you seldom can keep a seventeen Remington inside a cat or a fox. And, a coyote might run away from anything except a perfect hit, unless you're lucky.
It's different strokes for different folks, but I want a certainly dead animal, and I will accept a little damage
I have been there and done that with a sub caliber and a coyote that appears to have suffered a heart attack, eight out of ten times; if you are lucky? The ninth time, you hit a major bone and create major damage. The tenth time, he runs off, never to be found because your bullet placement was not precise enough for your unrealistic expectations. Fortunate for them, our subcaliber shooters always seem to be in a state of denial about failures, because of the amazing heart attack victims.
I'm just saying, no free lunch. LB
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Apr 30, 2007 10:45:41 GMT -6
LB: "subcaliber shooters always seem to be in a state of denial about failures, because of the amazing heart attack victims" -------------------------------------------------------------------- Well Leonard, my old friend Monte Dodson said it best. In a letter he wrote to me around twenty years ago he stated "They Will Learn".
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Post by 17HMR on Apr 30, 2007 12:59:08 GMT -6
Thanks Richc, Ill give them a honest try. I dont load my own, do you have any recomendations in factry loads for .243. Jeff
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Apr 30, 2007 14:35:54 GMT -6
17hmr, Take a look at the Federal "premium" offering that Blakcoyote recommends. Their 100 grainer is a Sierra Gameking. The 85 grain Gameking is also offered in Federal "premium" line. The 85 grain Gameking would work real well on coyotes I think.
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Post by 17HMR on Apr 30, 2007 16:30:47 GMT -6
OK thanks
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 11:39:26 GMT -6
FWS getting back to your original Q. the rifle you described sounds perfect. I have a few built almost just like that. My two favorite night guns are a tricked out model 7 stainless with HS precision barrel and stock in .17 Mach IV. The other is a CZ synthetic in .19 badger by Calhoon. Scopes are illuminated reticle Leupold's and Nightforce's.
As far as the never ending debate on calibers there is no answer as they all have their place. My .17's and .19's place is in my truck!
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on May 1, 2007 13:00:23 GMT -6
"My .17's and .19's place is in my truck!" ------------------------------------------------ Furhvstr, Maybe you otter take em outa yer truck and post em for sale on E Bay. LOL, that was funny Rat Thar.
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 17:09:42 GMT -6
68 cats this past season with .17'S AND .19'S. Fur check bought wife a Nissan Altima cash!! You still laughing?
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Post by coyotewhisperer on May 1, 2007 17:39:37 GMT -6
I thought you shotgunned them or was that another california guy?
Jeff
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 18:25:10 GMT -6
73 total for the season. Three cages, one road kill, one shotgun and 68 rifle. I am not a "sub-caliber fanatic" I have sold plenty coyote harvested with .22, .243,and.25 cals. I never found a load that did it all, I don't think one exists. The .17's and .19's certainly don't do it all but they work awfully well. Sewing bullet holes when you could be out hunting sucks. The most common way to harvest fur is calling, correct? If your doing things right most of the time you will take them with a shotgun or rifle out to 150 yds. or so, right? So why not use a caliber that works best for 95% of the animals called? Shooting at moving game or through bushes is not to smart no matter what cal. your shooting. If your shooting fur past 300 or so then your not talking about a fur gun you're talking about a long range varmint rig which is another subject. Your probably not harvesting enough to worry about sewing. I am not trying to convert anyone I am just stating what has worked best for me.
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Post by lb on May 1, 2007 18:54:25 GMT -6
Hmm? I seem to remember kills like that before they made Nevada resident only. Good job.
However, I don't agree with your logic. I can't control what animal, what species, and how many will offer a shot, and at what distance, especially after they scatter. A seventeen wouldn't handle 95% of my kills, but a good percentage of what I take is at night and some of them only come in just so far. Therefore, a 22-250 Ackley does seem to handle 95%. Whatever works for you.
Good hunting. LB
PS JC might be talking about Gary in Canyon Country, dumps most of his daytime animals with a shotgun?
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 18:59:50 GMT -6
"State of denial about failures" Isn't it a failure when you ruin a hide or have to spend an hour or more sewing one just to put in your damaged pile at the sale and lose 50% ? I hate big holes and anybody who has sewn more than a few would understand. Harvesting fur for market is a little different than straight calling. You need to adjust your techniques, attitude and equipment. I have a gun safe full of .22-243 middlesteads, ackleys, 240pages, 6-06's and most stuff in between and all have killed plenty o fur and still do. When it comes time to make some money out come the subs.
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Post by Freak( Jim V.) on May 1, 2007 19:16:31 GMT -6
I couldnt even imagine shooting a fox with a 243 no matter the bullet. Tried the 22-250 and 220 swift on em and the results were pretty consistant , inside out or in half for the most parts. Cant imagine a bobcat would fare much better. But then again thats why they sell so many different calibers . Me Ill stick with my 17 rem for fur and 220 swift for killing
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 19:20:50 GMT -6
LB- I haven't been around long enough to remember when NV. was open for bobcat? Only been varmint hunting since I was in high school, class of '84. I know you've been doing it longer than I have been alive and I find it interesting how we could arrive at two totally different places. Maybe I am still traveling. I didn't like losing my traps but on the up side it it's easier to find cats. Been on a few contests in NV. and see very few cats, too many trappers.
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 19:26:41 GMT -6
Freak- I usually pass on the fox cause they haven't been worth much until recently. This year I plan to take them as incidentals and should be able to get 20-30 on my night runs. Hope they come shotgun close cause even the .17 Mach IV slowed to about 3400 fps kills them deader then they need to be.
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Post by flatlander (Jeff Yancy) on May 1, 2007 19:32:25 GMT -6
Keep the posts going Mercer, I'm actually learning something!
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 19:38:14 GMT -6
You're too close to home. I will be shutting up know. "Look Mom, no stitches"
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Post by flatlander (Jeff Yancy) on May 1, 2007 19:43:24 GMT -6
;D How 'ya been Dude?
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Post by Furhvstr on May 1, 2007 19:49:17 GMT -6
Real good. Went scouting for a couple days earlier in the month. Found some good toilets. Working on my cage design. Been three years now. Maybe this year I will get them done and use them. You good?
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