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Post by jrbhunter on May 21, 2006 12:37:03 GMT -6
I'm working on a project and I need some input. Long story short, I have been studying some research done by a local vetrenary college here in Indiana and I want to prove/disprove one of their theories for myself. If it works, especially in this one scenario, it will greatly benefit the hunting opportunities I have.
Let's say you have a piece of property that you can hunt.... 250 acres or so of farmground/woods/riverbottoms. During this time of year (pups on the ground) how would you go about calling, trapping or spotting the Alpha female that inhabits this area. I don't need any other coyote... I just want her. It doesn't matter how many others I take out in the process. This particular farm only holds one resident pack, so for the most part it recieves low transient impact by travelers during the dispersal periods.
I cannot go into specifics of the EXACT property... so we'll have to remain vague on thoughts like "Denning Location" or "Hunting Zones". I can't nitpick this place and explain where I think she's denning or hunting... or the behavior of any of the other residents for that matter... but I need HER dead as soon as possible. I'm hoping some of you ADC guys or old timers like Wendt (Cheap shot) could tell me how to stumble upon this mangy needle in a haystack.
Thanks: Jason
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Post by Cal Taylor on May 22, 2006 7:51:55 GMT -6
Jason, I locate by howling near where I think the den is. Far enough away to not call them to you, just get them to answer. If that doesn't help, in the summer while denning, I camp on coyotes alot. My bedroll on a high spot to listen to them howl in the night, that will give you a good location to get close. Especially after the pups start howling. When you get close the calling is usually good. For actually finding the den, it just takes shoe leather and sweat. Sometimes you walk right to it and sometimes it takes more searching. Pay close attention to tracks and go from there.
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Post by jrbhunter on May 22, 2006 11:19:56 GMT -6
Thanks Cal, Good info there.
How about seperating her from the herd? Do you have any advice on sounds or presentation to pull that female in as opposed to every other subordinate dog and the alpha male in the area? We're talking about a hunt that will take place in the next few weeks by the way. Well before dispersal.
This time of year 95% of my callups are males, for obvious reasons, so how can I increase my odds of getting a female to respond out of the den? I'm afraid even when I do get close, as you suggested, the males will come in to the setup LONG before she does. Do I kill him now and try her next time... or adjust the initial stand to make it more female friendly?
The less impact I have on the general coyote population in this area the easier it will be to read my findings, so far as the research goes, so in an effort to stick with the research platform I'd like to get to HER FIRST and quit if at all possible. That is easier said than done! I can't devise a way, but would appreciate any input: the bottom line is I need her dead no matter who else is killed-orphaned or educated in the process.
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Post by Rich Higgins on May 22, 2006 16:01:19 GMT -6
Jason, USDA/APHIS/WS has been conducting research for several years on the selective removal of alpha males. At the Hopland research center they conducted genetic tests of saliva taken from the neck wounds of lambs killed by their tagged and collared coyotes. The alpha male was involved in 100% of the kills, the alpha female was involved in 40% of the kills and betas were never involved in the kill, although they would share in the meal. Subsequently they reasoned that removing the male would end the predation. They have since learned that the alphas will defend territory equally, the beta males aid in defense, beta females do not. The studies continue, data is being collected, no results have been determined. It would probably be easier to attract the male when the bitch is in the den than any other coyote. I don't believe you will find a sound or technique that will exclude all but the bitch. As Cal and other pro ADC trapper/callers will tell you, the most effective way of removing the alphas is by locating the den , setting up as close as possible and decoying them into your stand with dogs.
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Post by jrbhunter on May 22, 2006 16:18:11 GMT -6
Dogs.... dang how did I forget about dogs....
Thanks, I'm going to make a phone call tonight!!!!!
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Post by Cal Taylor on May 23, 2006 7:56:01 GMT -6
If you just want to target her, for what reasons I can't imagine, you will have to right on top of the den, and then you are still going to probably have all family members involved. You just have to pick her out and kill her first. I have occasionally hit a den too early in the morning, and the dog wasn't back from hunting yet and she will sometimes be the only adult there. If you get close enough to the den to get her, you should have some regard for the pups if they are young (like now) and take the time to kill them. If you are later in July or August, they are going to more than likely survive without too much trouble. I have a pretty low opinion of taking an early wet bitch for any reason without cleaning up your mess. It causes more problems than it solves and I have went in on deals where a sheepherder or rancher killed a wet bitch and couldn't find the pups so they call you in a week or so later. I have seen the poor little buggers staggering around starving, in the midst of piles of meat that the other adult brought back for them, but they are too small to eat.
What exactly is it you need her to prove? Theres not much about a wet female that someone here can't already tell you. I have handled quite a few and there are others here that have also (like Wiley) . Most of the guys that are serious about their work in this field cut open every female and can tell what she has been eating and how many pups she had and what her third cousin was doing last Tuesday, so there's not much info that can't be had already.
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Post by lb on May 23, 2006 11:22:18 GMT -6
I'm glad somebody asked the question, Cal. I have been wondering why this needs to be done, why the bitch, and why now? Of course, jr's reasons are his own business, but I find it curious.
As a recreational hunter, I observe the denning season by leaving them alone. But, I'm not a Crusader, every man for himself.
Good hunting. LB
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 23, 2006 11:58:35 GMT -6
So you want to get the wet bitch first and foremost? Early on the male will come with gusto while she is in the den nursing pups alot of times. I would wait another 10-14 days until she gets more mobil. I shot a big dog last week and had great vantage point and the female was not with him, thinking she was down in the den with the pups, so I'll go back in next week and pup in distress and she if she will come in. A pup in distress with female interrogation howls would work well. Remember "alot" of the times the closest coyote will be the male as he is likely to be more agreesive than the female, so look for the further out coyote and the odds will be that to be the wet bitch. Sometimes they will both come in with gusto and then you need to take them as you can. Dogs can be tricky if just looking for the wet bitch. If you have an agressive dog he/she will mix it up good alot of the times with the male and if the dog kicks the coyotes butt the female can be the first to retreat and then start moving pups if you kill the male. As others have stated the male coyote is the one that does more of the killing, not to say if you shoot him the female won't continue but your reason for targeting only the female I think alot would like to know? With killing one trys to get the bitch coyote first but it doesn't always work out that way and you take them as they come. If I can get both shot great and if I have a iffy shot and a dead nuts shot I'll take the dead nuts everytime and continue on the next coyote. You can call an agressive male back in again alot of times but the wet bitch won't give you much if you mess it up bad, I have learned this the hard way LOL. I finally got them both in traps later.
Also the size of ground seems small if you have 250 acres which is about 1/2 section and you have them pin pointed to be denning their calling them up shouldn't be a problem, either would hanging snares in the fence. Others gave you great advice get back off of them aways howl and locate the den and then setup in the morning with the wind and sun to your advantage. Remember if they see you comming in alot of the time the jiggs up. They will sit out there and bark.
95% of your call ups are males? Could be you are missing the females as they will hang back. I have had times I am so focused on the 1 coyote it isn't until later I see the second as she hangs back. The best case is to drop the female and then go right into pup distress and alot of the times you better be ready as the male will run right over you to get to the sound. Also as mentioned previous in May the males will be the ones to come in alot of the time due to the bitch nursing down in the hole.
As Cal stated their are guys on here who could give you a real good idea of what your trying to study on wet coyotes and depredation.
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Post by jrbhunter on May 23, 2006 17:05:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the input, I'm working on things right now to get this project off the ground. Perhaps as early as Monday. The reason for targeting the Alpha female has nothing to do with what is in her mouth, belly, den or bloodlines for that matter. The results will only be seen this fall when dispersal begins. Research recently developed by the same sources Rich cited above now draws a connection between the age and life experiences of an alpha female and the closed structure of the local pack. This interest me, from a calling standpoint moreso than depredation. TrappingC, thanks for the input. I've called a few dogs... killed a couple doubles... just don't know anyone that can get lactating females in range here consitantly. Last May I killed 9 coyotes, 8 of which were males... I had to spot/shoot the female off her den and I suspect that's where the other 8 girlfriends remained as well. Leonard... I don't mind giving a couple the West Coast skinning job if it serves a purpose.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 23, 2006 18:18:46 GMT -6
jrb that is it in a nut shell if you want to call in more females wait until June or try different sounds. The females are just as protective as the males are, mother nature just made them more skitish than the bold males for the sake of the pups. If you are using the right sounds stay away from agressive male sounds, use more pup in distress and female howls and you should get what your after.
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Post by bobwendt on May 25, 2006 17:32:38 GMT -6
cal nailed it good. shoe leather, night siren or howling and have the decency to kill the pups too. they arial gun a lot of adults this time of year and I`ve seen the same starving 4 week old pups like cal has seen, surrounded by rodents and such they can`t eat yet , that the old dog or subordinates bring in. really galls me personally at the callousness shown to coyotes killed with no attempt to take the den too. anyway, I take all the adults and the den too, rarly one and not the other and if I never find the den it rubs me wrong bad and I search till I`m exausted. now a days I find the den first, kill the adults second and get the den third. just make it clean and sweet. like tc said, 250 acres for a coyote family is not realistic. the den could be miles away even the east. I`ve seen them go 5 miles from a den in the west if on a dirtry deed sheep killing mission. anyway, what cal said is about as straght up advise as you can get. the gmen are staying out most nights sirening now, plane gunning the next sunny windless day where coyote pairs responded the night before, and then gassing the dens. good efficient clean business. it`a dirty job that needs done, but we can do it clean as humanly possible.
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Post by qwagoner on May 25, 2006 22:33:45 GMT -6
Amen to Cal and Bob. I couldn’t agree more.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Post by jrbhunter on May 26, 2006 4:32:19 GMT -6
Not saying they don't leave the 250 acres Bob... just want to get the regulars that have denned up here year after year. This place has some very unique terrain and boundaries that impede the travel of transient coyotes... landowners and deer hunters commonly refer to a spotted coyote as "The brown one" or "The bob tail" as the residents are consitant visitors to the homestead.
The den has now been pinpointed in a rock crevass on a riverbluff, coyotes have been located with howlers the last three nights.... I'll be arriving this evening for a little walkthrough and we should be hunting them no later than Monday morning. This is some rough country but the guys did an excellent job scouting this week... much better than I had anticipated because of intense turkey hunting in the area: We should do very well. Hopefully I'll have some pics for you next week.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 26, 2006 15:19:44 GMT -6
JRB what in the heck are you studying exactly? If they are their go in and call them up.
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Post by jrbhunter on May 31, 2006 20:00:54 GMT -6
Got some good info, but not the coyote I was after..... 93° and 90% humidity made it hard to navigate the hills and cliffs. We managed to make a few stands, call up a couple dogs... didn't get the one we were after but we did make her vocalize at 10a.m. on Monday morning. Pups were squeeling alongside her, right where they had been located two consecutive nights before. We located at least a dozen packs through the 3 nights... most were receptive between 3 and 5 a.m. Females were the most vocal closer to daylight. Whitetail fawns are on the ground, already being chopped up by mower blades. Does were very receptive to the fawn in distress sounds, charging us on multiple occasions. Coyotes were abundant in the fresh hayfields, wind-row lurkers were a dime-a-dozen on Saturday and Sunday nights while cutting after dark.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 1, 2006 12:18:47 GMT -6
what time where you trying to call these coyotes? Did you use pup distress? What is your study trying to proove out?
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Post by jrbhunter on Jun 1, 2006 21:20:07 GMT -6
We hunted/scouted during all hours of the day and night, used all sorts of sounds. I found a combination of setup and sound that worked well for the time of year... we had several in range but none that fit the research. If we were out to kill coyotes we could've stacked up a few to say the least.
I explained the research a little bit above, it mainly involves the family structure in a pack of eastern coyotes... and how it's affected by the loss of an alpha female. It will be mid-July before I can get back after those particular coyotes again... and I should have a good camera operator over my shoulder by then.
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Post by Wiley on Jun 4, 2006 9:11:33 GMT -6
jrb hunter,
I'll save you the time on your research.
The female is the anchor of the family. If she successfully dens in an area, unless something changes about that area (human disturbance, habitat change, prey availability, or water), she will usually stay there indefinitely.
In contrast, if you remove the alpha male at any time of year, the female will usually mate with another male which drifts into the area from Dec. through Feb.
If you remove the lactating alpha female at this time of year (May), the pups will starve and the male will eventually move on. Every effort should be made to remove the pups if you remove the lactating female because they will starve before they are old enough to eat solid foods. No matter what time of year you kill the alpha female, the male will USUALLY move on and find another mate.
The difference between the removal of the alpha male or the alpha female is that the female is much more prone to stay in the denning area as opposed to the male. That is the only major difference.
Once the pups are old enough for solid food, either parent can raise them until they are old enough to disperse.
I know no calling, trapping, or snaring technique that is sex specific. The only way to kill just the female is to call them both up, observe them, and only shoot the female.
I always figured the pups would perish if the lactating female was shot before June 1st and the pups could not be found. Pups that survive on their own, without parents, can surive on grasshoppers and insects but they will usually be more prone to human mortality due to not having as much fear of humans instilled in them as pups that are raised by adults. Most coyote pup orphans end up road killed or shot along the roads because that is where they find the easiest food without knowing how to fend for themselves.
If you are not working on livestock killing complaints or wildlife protection, no research project that I can think of would justify the killing of a lactating female coyote without also removing the pups.
If you think your research is justified without any benefit to wildlife or livestock, then you should make every effort to find and kill those pups so they don't starve if you remove the lactating female. As Bob has suggested, I would make sure you know where the den is, so you can remove the pups before you take the female.
If you are not working on a livestock killing complaints and you kill the female without also searching out and taking the pups, you should have your citizenship revoked.
~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 4, 2006 10:10:00 GMT -6
citizenship revoked, well maybe not that. but a good switching with 1/4" maple whip if enough. in the west coyotes are so endemic I`ve took plenty of alpha females and see no defference a year later in numbers, but here in the east I have taken the alpha female and hardly any coyotes at all for a year or two, I mean since the pups are trashed too, fall or whenever. it`s kind of like knocking out the female breeder bobcat in marginal habitat- it could be years before you get more litters.
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Post by jim on Jun 4, 2006 12:59:04 GMT -6
There was a post on The Michigan Sportsman where a guy live trapped some fox pups from an airport to save them from being killed because they were a hazard for the planes and released them on property away from the airport but didn't catch the adults, this was about May 20. I said they probably starved what do you thinkBob or S.H.? Jim
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