If I was King........

[trappnman]

.....and could redo the coon tests, the right way....what would I do?

To begin with- I would LOOK at a coon and his behavior. His behavior is given a chance, he will chew on a NUMB foot.

Now- WHY does he do this?

A little trapline experience and cause and effect studies- show a coon chews for 2 reasons- 1) anger 2) insecurity at being restrained.

So what happens, thinking trappers wonder.... a coon that is angry (with nothing to vent that anger) and a coon that is insecure...does one thing- he chews at what is restraining him, in order to escape restraint.

So- the logical conclusion- among thinking coon trappers- is that if you offset those two concerns- the result will be less chewing.

So any protocol developed would, a thinking man would think- incorporate methods to eliminate the primary reasons FOR chewing.

To that end- 2 protocols should have been established:

1) entanglement does two things..a) it improves security via cover and "hidden" aspects and b) it allows an outlet for that anger.

Therefore- testing protocol should have been on land, to set where using short drags, coon are allowed access to entanglement.

protocol #2- coon held in water are not held there inhumanely. Best case scenario- no chewing. Worst case with thin skinned southern coons is hypothermia- and is that bad? Hypothermia, in observed human deaths as such- are reported to be a peaceful, humane death.

and there you have it- "secret" methods of coon trappers to reduce and/or eliminate chewing.

Why were nether looked at, used and tested?

[dj88ryr]

trappnman said:

.
Why were nether looked at, used and tested?

I think they might have been in trouble if they had to rely on trappers input, with trappers that might not have grabbed their ankles for the facilitator.

[trappincoyotes39]

So- the logical conclusion- among thinking coon trappers- is that if you offset those two concerns- the result will be less chewing.

So any protocol developed would, a thinking man would think- incorporate methods to eliminate the primary reasons FOR chewing.

Granted but why wouldn't the logical coon trapper think of a better tool and allow many different protocols to be used under any circumstances and coon traits?

What did coyote trappers do on extended checks? change the protocol or change the trap? Laminations,base plates, better swiveling, stronger springs all became of this. Not changing it to all dragging of coyotes because it is not the "best"method for all involved, that is my point Tman, what works for you is not practical or ones choice across the coons Territory's of the US.

Therefore- testing protocol should have been on land, to set where using short drags, coon are allowed access to entanglement.

Tman have you ever been to central Iowa? Tell me of the entanglement afforded them in this region? Alot of coons but flat, barren picked fields and drainage ditches. Go drive by Lorenz,IA sometime and tell me where all the entanglement is.

Worst case with thin skinned southern coons is hypothermia- and is that bad? Hypothermia, in observed human deaths as such- are reported to be a peaceful, humane death.

First we could debate how humane that is for a human, disorientation and constant nerves twitching and losing control of muscle activity as your body temperature drops, but the point is public perception once again does the public perceive that as a good way to die? Drowning sounds good but I will be the first to tell you that is my worst case scenario to leave this earth and I'm sure many others feel the same way, while I don't translate that thought to critters many of the general public do or would, I could honestly see the same for hypothermia as well. Why open the can of worms if it can not be tested out to see the longevity of this type of death? Or just leave it alone and allow states and the trappers to best make that decision? AS they have done for along time.

I would think a coon trappers would have thought of coon guards long before the BMP's and yet because of them we now have another advancement in trap type, same as the grizz trap. My point is this if you can better the situation with a trap design that takes care of the problem : (chewing) why are you so set against it? Canine trappers have adopted laminations and base plating, shock springs, better swivels, more swivels, center rigging traps, and using disposables that add more to swiveling, but you as the steadfast coon trapper is afraid to add an 8" peace of 9GA wire to your coon traps? I will also ask once again what hinderance these trap types would have for mink and muskrats?

[trappnman]

Trappers have been playing with coon guards for 50 years. Yawn.

Lets see. I live in SE Mn. I field trialed and coon hunted all over Iowa. Yes, I have an inkling of what Iowa is like.

If you don't have entanglement, you give them movement OR you hold them in water.

Thats obvious.

[trappincoyotes39]

Trappers have been playing with coon guards for 50 years. Yawn.

That was the answer I was looking for thank you! Yet some can't see the forest Through the trees?

If you don't have entanglement, you give them movement OR you hold them in water.

Movement to where and with what? Hold them in water of 3-6"? What will their foot look like? How far will they go with the movement?

Or and this is just an or you could just use a 1.5 dbl jaw or coon guard stake the sucker and be done with it and on too the next set location correct? Still allowing any coon,rat or mink to get caught. See a choice is their for trappers they can do it your way if it works in"their" area or use different designed traps if they "choose" to do so.

Your stuck in the world of method only and not taking full advantage of the tools that are made. Griz new their would be those that would bad mouth and say ah those traps are good for barns or inner city ADC but on a "real" coon line they have no real place, the main reason he had those guys go out and whack 1,000 ea, that proves the trap can catch a pile of coons if trappers give it a chance.

Trappers on a whole don't like change even when voluntary, again look how long guys have been talking about the extras on coyote traps, if finally caught on and as people used these additions many found great benefit in them, now what company doesn't have laminated,forged jaw traps, traps with wider jaws?

Choices is what we all have because we all don't live or trap the same environments correct?

[trappnman]

no way, no how is a REAL double jaw a preferred coon trap on land.

Been down that road years ago.

Same with any guard type trap.

My method of trapping is to use ONE coon trap for both land and water. Cause I'm one of those apparently rare trappers, that actually targets coon ONLY with traps on land, not snares or conibears.

Methods are part of trapping. You cannot distinguish the two.

bmps are not defined as mechanical devices only. bmps- Best Management Practices are used in countless fields- and both Equipment AND technology/methods are a factor.

Movement to where and with what? Hold them in water of 3-6"? What will their foot look like? How far will they go with the movement?


If the bmps or yourself would HOLD coon in water, the answer to your question is self evident.

As far as movement where and how- there are many, many possibilities to solve ANY such problem.

Heres th thing that gets me- HOW did the #11 dj offset pass? I used them in doz and doz of coon catches over a 3 year period in spring summer and fall- and I KNOW what the trap does- you have at least 75% chewing to where toes are missing. I KNOW this. I SAW this.

and those were in traps EXACTLY like the bmp set up- NO entanglement and at least 50% access to land.

I'm guessing it was one of those definitive samples of 20-30 coon that "passed" the trap.

Which shows how fluky, how unreliable- the bmp scores are on coon.

Why not stake them solid on land? Because, just exactly like the bmp test showed- solid staked coon on land CHEW- something EVERY canine trapper knows well.

If the METHODS are out there- and they ARE- to reduce/eliminate chewing- why should the bmps- and YOU- ignore them.

After all, isn't the point to STOP the chewing?

and by using the correct METHODS- most if not all common coon traps would pass with flying colors.

Simply incorporate those METHODS into the bmps.

Simple, easy to do.

After all, the bmps are ONLY recommendations, and if trappers don't WANT to use methods to reduce chewing, then thats up to them.

But don't hide your head in the sand like the bmp committee- FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.

Methods that take no more time, energy, etc- and can easily be adpoted to about any situation I can think of.

[trappnman]

Just for the record- I don't believe any stated grizz traps or for that matter ANY coon specific trap wouldn't work on a long coon line.

fwit- I waso ne of the first ot test grizes and believe I was the first to write an in depth review for them for Fur Takers. Postively, I might add.

But if all I wanted was coon, I'd run hounds again.

Seriously- thats their flaw- they are TOO species specific to have a total place on my coon lines. I'll take those fox (4 this year) I'll take those coyotes (3 this year) I'll take those badgers (2 this year in coon sets).

I'll take those rats in water, and mink ( 8-9 mink in coon sets, too many rats to count) and I'll take those extra beaver (3 in 1.5 coils this year).

Not to mention the skunks and opposums, which I don't want- but plenty of others do.

I do not want to -for several reasons- pass up that "free" fur.

Grizs simply don't offer that option.

[trappincoyotes39]

no way, no how is a REAL double jaw a preferred coon trap on land.

Please define that?

My method of trapping is to use ONE coon trap for both land and water. Cause I'm one of those apparently rare trappers, that actually targets coon ONLY with traps on land, not snares or conibears.

Fair enough but we have yet to go down the road of dryland coon trapping in the BMP model. You are rare because most would make land sets to catch all available species be it coons,fox,coyotes or badgers and use much more than a 1.5 reg jaw, I would think if using your guiding methods and the 1.75 wouldn't you stand to gain more than 3 coyotes?

After all, isn't the point to STOP the chewing?

We couldn't agree more on that, but doesn't the grizz address that 100%? Doesn't the coon guard trap address that as well? If those methods work for you by god use them and have fun, but tell me how out in the middle of nowehere central Iowa how you are going to set it up to be fast and efficant with very little cover and almost no trees? Also tell me how you do that in dry to semi- drainage ditches with less than 6" of water and reduce chewing and still make coon trapping fast? I mean I really would like to hear how that would work?

HOW did the #11 dj offset pass? I used them in doz and doz of coon catches over a 3 year period in spring summer and fall- and I KNOW what the trap does- you have at least 75% chewing to where toes are missing. I KNOW this. I SAW this.

Is this to say the BMP passed atrap that didn't do as tested out? Or is that your findings with this trap? Remember you didn't use pan stops, there maybe more to that than one thinks.

and by using the correct METHODS- most if not all common coon traps would pass with flying colors.

If they have the needed things you described or want to take additional time. Your methods are not going to work all over the US, I can't prove that but I'm betting the 1.5 wouldn't get the passing score across the board.

I'll take those rats in water, and mink ( 8-9 mink in coon sets, too many rats to count) and I'll take those extra beaver (3 in 1.5 coils this year).

Again I can see your point but the question still that goes un answered is wouldn't a 1.5 with coon guard still afford you these catches as well?

After all, the bmps are ONLY recommendations, and if trappers don't WANT to use methods to reduce chewing, then thats up to them.

Oh my Tman we have finally agreed!!! Voluntary you got it!!!!!

[trappnman]

I would think if using your guiding methods and the 1.75 wouldn't you stand to gain more than 3 coyotes?


I don't think I had too many misses at those water pockets using the 1.5s..but you never know.

but tell me how out in the middle of nowhere central Iowa how you are going to set it up to be fast and efficient with very little cover and almost no trees? Also tell me how you do that in dry to semi- drainage ditches with less than 6" of water and reduce chewing and still make coon trapping fast? I mean I really would like to hear how that would work?


very little cover and no trees- please ask those trappers using footholds in Iowa to contact me, And I'll explain my methods to him.

I'm betting 99.99 it is snares or conibears in such situations .

But if it is not- you use fox drags. After all, with no cover and no trees, no problems.

and if its road side ditches we are talking- then its 100% snares and conibears.

If the ditches are dry- you use drags. If there is at least a few inches of water- you stake so that NO land access is allowed.

I'll take those rats in water, and mink ( 8-9 mink in coon sets, too many rats to count) and I'll take those extra beaver (3 in 1.5 coils this year).

This statement was in regard to Griz traps. As I said before, I want the SAME trap for land or water- and I'll you like traps with coon guards for dirt sets, thats fine. I don't. Tried them, worthless.

So a coon guard trap is not an all purpose- land and water trap.


Your methods are not going to work all over the US,

Why?

[trappincoyotes39]

But if it is not- you use fox drags. After all, with no cover and no trees, no problems.

Your methods are not going to work all over the US,

Why?

I tried the 2 prong fox drags in areas of Iowa Spirit lake-gratinger area years ago 1990-1991 and you will find coons in some of the darndest places with 8 ft of chain and a fox drag! Under grassed over cut banks,culverts, holes, because where you don't have "decent entaglement" you can have coons get to the darndest places. It took time to search for these coon and exspecially in the dark let alone good daylight! It wasn't until I tried good drags that things changed but yet still proved to be more time consumming than snares. I ran most of my traps before the sun rose to get work on time. I needed coons,fox and coyotes to be there and not searching in the dark.

Far different than NE,Iowa were dragged anything in the timber and underbrush hardly ever made it more than 30 yrds.

I guess if I was concerned with coon feet and wanted a quick way to trap coons in these areas I would buy 1.5 coon guard traps stake them and forget about them and down the road, but snares for me still stood out as the quickest and cheapest way to catch a pile of coons.

[foxtail]

If I was King....

If I were king we wouldn't have to worry about the BMPs. There wouldn't be any.

There wouldn't be any animal rights people either.
At least none with their heads connected to the rest of them.

[trappnman]

guard type traps, under dirt, aren't going to do it for me.

yes, good drags are the key.

[Zagman]

Steve, seriously, .....you should take some closeups of some of your coons, it will show the entanglement, drags, and the good paw condition.

It will go a long way, I think, to demonstrating your beliefs on the effectiveness of methods vs. trap choice when talking about coon BMPS and chewing....

Zagman

[trappnman]

ps- I was asked to show pictures of toe caught coyotes in side chained traps- so I posted ALL trhe toe caught ones I took this past year.

And got nothing but grief over it-

I learned my lesson well......

[trappnman]

mark- I've posted pictures many times before- and I get the "you aren't showing all the feet, just the good ones"

The methods are simple- those that do them- report the same results. Anyone can test them on their line-

1) if not drowning, hold coon in water only OR

2) in small creeks, use long branch MOVEABLE wooden drags.

3) on land- provide movement and/or entanglement situations- and always overhead cover.

[mkborders]

Well I shure as heck am no expert here. But after reading some things Steve wrote about entangelment I went out and tried something new this year.

I also trap bare ,open corn fields. To give my sets an entanglment I drove a 1x1 wooden stake into the ground within the predicted trap circle. The stake was about 6 inches above ground.

Shure enough, when I caught racoon they would have been chewing the heck out of the wood, but not the foot. The chain was not even wraped around compleatly (short chain), but the stake was the point of resistence and that is what they attacked.

[trappnman]

If the bmp committee would just understand one simple thing- that coon do not chew to eacape the trap- they chew out of frustration at being held.

Sounds too simple and way to common sensical, but its something they need to focus on.

[trappincoyotes39]

I also trap bare ,open corn fields. To give my sets an entanglment I drove a 1x1 wooden stake into the ground within the predicted trap circle. The stake was about 6 inches above ground.

I'm a little confused on this? How far into the ground are these 1x1 stakes? Also how do they hold up to a muddy field and a coon going round and round with them in less than ideal conditions without breaking off the stake or becomming entagled and getting damage that way?

The chain was not even wraped around compleatly (short chain),

How short? and how close to your traps are your stakes?

[trappnman]

Reading his post- he really didn't mean entanglement...the coon could REACH the post, not walk around it.

His anger at being held had an object to release it on rather than the trap....

I often make sets within reach of old stumps- the coon just shred em'.....trappnman

[mkborders]

Depends on soil but I don't use any stakes over 20 inches for this purpose. I usually set them to the side of the set so they also act as a guide of sorts. My chains are about 12". Remember, he dos'nt have to wrap around the stake, but as he makes his circles he will snag it and then he just goes nuts on it.

Going to play with it some more next season, see if I can't get some more out of it.
I'm thinking this would also keep alot of pressure off the actual trap stake in case of coyotes though I'm not sure how long it would last.