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bmp
Nov 11, 2005 15:30:58 GMT -6
Post by coyoteman37 on Nov 11, 2005 15:30:58 GMT -6
In my opinion tell the public stay out. trap size and type should be determined by the trapper himself.If the public isworried about pets keep them on a leash at home ON YOUR PROPERTY. comfort ? the animal is going to die remember ?! offsets for the live market. WE should stop trying to please others and please ourselves with our traps and the job done. there will be no more foot dammage to a dog caught in a #3 than a #2. And yes conibears should be allowed on land. If you have permission to trap said property or are paid to then all parties are notified of what is happening and stay away..
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bmp
Nov 11, 2005 16:25:24 GMT -6
Post by FWS on Nov 11, 2005 16:25:24 GMT -6
Sorry but that's just not political reality, you will trap only as long as the public finds the harvest and your equipment acceptable.
And the demographics are changing pretty much everywhere, eventually you WILL be forced to make changes to your practises.
And most of you will be very glad the BMP data exists to support your continued use of practicable capture devices.
We're entering into some very dangerous times ahead when the most visible advocacy group for trapping (it's always been an advocacy group) relies on pseudo science from quasi political hacks with no real understanding of the issues.
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bmp
Nov 12, 2005 19:46:19 GMT -6
Post by lynxcat on Nov 12, 2005 19:46:19 GMT -6
AGREED FWS...the FIRST and ONLY time someone catches someone's poodle in a #9 Alaskan...well...NEED I SAY MORE!! The average trapper is NOT capable of contemplating and figuring out the differences between what is necessary to hold NOT only the target animal (errr..NON targets are there)BUT what is "needed" to facilitate a humane control with minimum damage AND the issues arrising from non target catches... ...IF you can figure out what I just said...LET ME KNOW!!! lynx
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bmp
Nov 13, 2005 7:26:57 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 13, 2005 7:26:57 GMT -6
lynxcat- as a serious question to you- what is the definition of the "average" trapper?
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bmp
Nov 13, 2005 18:14:42 GMT -6
Post by kyboy on Nov 13, 2005 18:14:42 GMT -6
I think trappers should decide for trappers.I know whats best for me to use. If i want to use a #14 victor for beaver then i should be able to.
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bmp
Nov 13, 2005 21:59:32 GMT -6
Post by lynxcat on Nov 13, 2005 21:59:32 GMT -6
Steve...I cant say as how I know...I'm an AVID trapper...trap EVERYTHING...am above average in intellect(gave up a promising career in geological engineering to work in a family business).and cant say as how I could HONESTLY decide what is best without a BUNCH of facts....input...and outside information....AND doubt that anyone else could either....just being honest. As to the rest of the question...I would assume that the average trapper is someone who traps part time....a recreational trapper in essence...this probably covers over 90% of the trappers out there...you..Bob..myself and 37 amongst others trap for a living...a VAST minority. lynx
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bmp
Nov 14, 2005 6:30:18 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 14, 2005 6:30:18 GMT -6
some interesting points lynx- DOES the average trapper need regulkations ot tell him whati s acceptable or not?
Perhaps so. I've see coon traps staked with a small stick poked through the ring on the stock chain.
I do see lots of potential good in bmps. I also see lots of potential harm
Harm like the WI study. While this study is fine for the rsidents of WI- how apparently think rstraining devices are good- unfortuantley it is being hailed as the ultimate snaring bmp out there and is quickly being used by other states as the "snaring" bible- which is bad.
Also when the bmps are just plain, flat out done wrong- like the coon bmps... they cause great harm.
I've kept close watch on the coon I've trapped in real life coon situations- and the chewing is almost a non factor. But look at the feet in caniones sets- which for all practical purposes are like the coon protocals insist- open space, no entanglement, no water, etc- and the feet are terrible.
Most state regulations provide the basic tools to use (laws and equipment limits) and trappers education coursed SHOULD provide basic techniques and dos/don't.
But provide good, perhaps for the public awareness, for legislators awareness, for DNR use.
So the arguement becomes- are bmps for TRAPPERS or for other purposes?
Bottom line, I think for other purposes. And those purposes do both harm and good. The question becomes- which balances the scale most?
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bmp
Nov 14, 2005 21:56:59 GMT -6
Post by bblwi on Nov 14, 2005 21:56:59 GMT -6
I personally feel the BMPs have caused the most concerns because they are Trying to set standards for tools and not methods or practices. BMPs to my way of thinking are methods and protocols used to minimize harm and pain to restrained catches. These could be quite different for many regions and species. Traps over time may become part of that holistic BMP process. What happened is that the BMPs targeted the most controversial item that trappers use, their traps. Trappers and anti trappers both hold strong opinions about traps. I would have hoped we could have begun this study and or BMP process in a less controversial and more uniting way then a divisive way. It may be too late for that now. Now it seems that anything that has a BMP name attached to it is rejected as anti trapper, soon to be the law and w/o merit. I find that stance by trappers in general to be very immature. I would think we would want to be the leaders of these types of practices not the critics.
Bryce
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bmp
Nov 15, 2005 13:36:01 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2005 13:36:01 GMT -6
bryce- I simply cannot accept- that methods are not included in the coon bmps. Yet- for all practicla purposes- methods ARE incorporated into the coyte bmps.
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bmp
Nov 16, 2005 17:43:45 GMT -6
Post by SgtWal on Nov 16, 2005 17:43:45 GMT -6
Ok. they're screwed up beyond all belief. Can they be made into something useful?
wayne
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bmp
Nov 17, 2005 15:34:38 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 17, 2005 15:34:38 GMT -6
Ok. they're screwed up beyond all belief
Tell me how?
Coyoteman37 are you serious? Too much ogorman influance? "Most" trappers trap around alot of urban settings and deal with dogs and cats all the time, out west we don't have near that problem, to say conibears should be legal on land all sizes, and too put them in the hands of trappers would be the downfall of trapping in a hurray!!! Think about what FWS wrote!
WE must have the acceptance of the general public or one by one each state will fall! Some states are AG Dominate and you have little pressure to change laws or over regulate trapping, but alot of states are not AG dominate and these type of people go with the flow and many want to know how others feel and think and then make their decisions based on information and what there friends think and feel. Alot of it is without FACTS or any science, emotion: it makes alot of decisions for people, and when you base your thought process on emotions only it rarely turns out well!
Many states have fought anti movements on many issues and have won, why? They had the science and facts to back up their claims, that is what the BMPs do, we can hash out the coon BMP till the end of time it is what it is for the time being, remember a living document that can be changed, nothing set in stone. I'm willing to bet it will be revisited, but I'm not going to say we should change thresholds for the sake of the 1.5 reg jaw!!!!
Too many people set traps and anchor traps in too many ways, too have methods be the book on a trap passing or failing, the coyote BMP had suggestions on anchor devices, but I bet I can achieve the same results with many different types of anchoring devices, be it a solid stake, a drag, a earth anchor etc. It was the traps that passed that showed what they could do. Remember not all traps that were tested passed the coyote BMP either, but becuase one was a high dollar trap not used by alot of trappers we don't hear how flawed the coyote BMP was because it didn't pass.
Also don't forget they tried many ways on the coon BMP to get it too pass, alot of $$$ and time used on this study, and not ALL trappers can drag traps and not all trappers have the habitat to do so, if you would like state to state BMP's then great it would really limit guys from trapping others states due to equipment changes.
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 7:29:26 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 18, 2005 7:29:26 GMT -6
crap, crap, crap-= the blew the coon bmps and there is no other way to state it!
the protocal used for the coon bmps could not have been set up to induce chewing then if they had delibrately attempted to do so. To say all this time and effort was spent means nothing... wasteed time, wasted effort.
I don't know who the coon trappers were or care to- but can say that METHODS make all the difference in coon trapping. Thats a fact that CANNOT be denied by ANYONE that has trapped more than a few coon and one that WANTS to reduce chewing CAN.
I proved it again this fall- to NOT include methods is to be a fool. No wonder people are against some bmps- cause they are BOGUS!
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 10:14:39 GMT -6
Post by SgtWal on Nov 18, 2005 10:14:39 GMT -6
The BMPs used for other industries identify a problem or situation, and then outline a suggested program to deal with this issue. The "BMPs" we have are clearly aimed at a reduction in harm to the target animal. And while this sounds great when you speak to the choir, it does little in the mind of a trapper who intends to kill the target animal and harvest the pelt. AND, carries little influence among those who want the animal ALIVE. The poor little critter is alive and unharmed right up untill I shoot it between the eyes. Kind of defeates the purpose of the kind hearted trap to me. I can see low success ratios and limited damage if I was trapping for fun along a "catch and release" trapline, but I do ADC and fur harvesting where my targets are doomed critters. I cannot accept 60% success in holding power. The BMPs, and I suspect the aims of many trapping associations leaders, is to preserve trapping as a minor sport. Reguardless if the fur market can survive the drop in production. The high number fur producer, and the ADC trapper have been left out of the process. Next will come season bag limits for trappers as well.
Ignore if you wish an old man's rants. wayne
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 11:36:21 GMT -6
Post by td on Nov 18, 2005 11:36:21 GMT -6
I drag a lot of my traps due to the shallow,rocky creeks I trap and get a lot of chewing on occasion. I use small,brushy green trees cut down on the spot or heavier logs, depending on the situation. I don't keep any sort of track of all this, but I don't think the bigger coon seem to chew as much. I catch predominately the yearling coon while trapping the creeks in early season. They can vary from just a few pounds up to about 18 lbs. Most are 14 to 18. I use #11's on the creek, so maybe it's just the bigger coon can't get to their feet, but the ones I catch in #3's in yote sets, predominately 20-25+ lb don't seem to do as much chewing either. I don't keep any sort of track of all this, just an obvservation that could be wrong.
Minnesota coon look bigger on average than mine. Just wondering if anybody thinks the size of the coon makes any difference in the amount of chewing, no matter what size of trap.
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 15:10:34 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 18, 2005 15:10:34 GMT -6
Sgt wal, it is public perception we need to worry about not what we think or feel but what does the general public think and how we interact with them and how can we show them factual evidance of how are equipment operates to better the welfare of said animal. Look at hunting they incorperate that into hunting shows, "most" don't show the true nature of all hunts, they are edited and cleaned up for TV why? the animal is getting shot for crying out loud!!!! Why should the hunter care if it a gut shot deer or takes 10 shots to bring it down it is all going to die!!! The reason is the general public and how they percieve hunting and trapping, that will define our outcomes in these sports for years to come, the public likes quick clean kills and that is what is given to them on TV!!!!
You can see low success rates with the traps that passed the coyote BMP? Tell me what traps and why? I use the traps that have passsed the western BMP and the Eastern isn't much differance the #3 laminated trap is not a low success rate coyote trap!!! Either is the majority of traps that passed the coyote BMP, I bring this up because you do ADC work so do I and I use the sterling mj600 passed the western BMP nicley, I also use the #3 Bridger modified again passed both BMP's nicely, what trap do you use that isn't a passing trap on the BMPs?
Tman, your latest coon pic on the drag, while I might be mistaken I thought I seen a few toes missing? Is that correct or not? If possible enlarge and show it again. You can't change the thresholds; for we have been over this many times, you seem to think there is validity in doing so, I don't! The coon is a chewer period and like TP posted even with drags and the scores on chewing I don't think the 1.5 reg jaw would pass ,I would like to see it tested although methods again would leave many complaining about methods becoming law!!!! Correct or not? You can't please all the people all the time. There are traps that are made and desingned to address the problem and yet people want to say the testing was bogus because their trap didn't pass, if the testing was way out of line then how did some traps make it? design of the trap and taking into account the problems associated with coons and chewing, thats why we have such new inventions as the grizz,coon cuffs etc, and people can't say they are inefficant as the Grizz had over 1,000 coons caught in it by 2 trappers!!!!
SGT WAL wrote :"The BMPs used for other industries identify a problem or situation, and then outline a suggested program to deal with this issue."
Exactly why people made the grizz and coon cuffs and the other specie specific traps, is that not a BMP in good practice? Wasn't the testing done trying to find out how that could be achieved? Again as TD wrote: coons chew not matter what you do, the only way to prevent this with 90% or higher rate is by enclosing the foot, so he can't get to it with his teeth! The problem is the 1.5 reg jaw is a multi species trap and thats how most like to use it, but because it couldn't muster a passing score people want to show bad methods on the testing versus the tool used! People are more afraid of retooling than anything, but again I ask what state has outlawed the 1.5 reg jaw for coon trapping because of this testing? It has to do with the physical makeup of the trap and the coon having the ability to chew if he wants to, TD made another excellent point, smaller coons outside of the coon belt how would they fair on dragging? So we make 1.5 reg jaws pass for some and not others? I bet the trappers on the odd side of the fence would be great with that?
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 15:32:29 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 18, 2005 15:32:29 GMT -6
I stand by my statement- the coon bmps are junk. The protocal will ENSURE chewing.
the 1.5 couldn't muster a passing score because the protocal in using it ENSURED chewing.
I don't care if al lthe kings horses and all the kings men took part i nthe coon bmps- the protocal ENSYREWS chewing and thats that.
To argue otherwise, shows a true lack of coon knowledge and coon habits.
I'll never support it here, there, anywhere- and I'll use whatever influenece I may or may not have to ENSURE that it gets used NO WHERE.
To say money and time was spent- so what? money spend foolishly, time spent unwisely.
smaller coons outside of the coon belt- who freaking cares? no one traps them anyways according to the forums. decide a #0 is the trap for them and let it go.
Tell me again how a #11 offset is a good coon trap.LOL
Anyone that says METHODS were NOT incorporated into the coyote bmps- hasn't read them.
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 15:45:55 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 18, 2005 15:45:55 GMT -6
Tman I can gurantee not all coons caught anywere are all the 25+ lbs coons and the testing would surely catch some of those smaller coons and be lumped into the overall score! Meaning chewed feet would bring down the average score, all depending on the coons size and make up of his demeanor as well. TD explained he still gets chewing with drags!!!
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bmp
Nov 18, 2005 19:13:45 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 18, 2005 19:13:45 GMT -6
I do not care what others do- I know what I do- and the results I get.
I've freely offered these methods to the testers. the fact that they do not use them is their problem. I cannot accept the bogus results of bogus protocal. ANY coon staked i nte open, without cover or refuge- will chew. Like, duh!
So tyo say that the coon chewed- is repeating a foregone conclusion.
I'm truly sorry all the bmp studies in their collective wisdom are unable to use a 1.5 with their methods without excessive chewing- No surprize to me and any oter coo ntrapper that has put years in on thel ine.
Is there a solution? Of course. But that would take time and money. Now- if I was a conspiracy fan..I'd start to wonder. And please- don't bring up the name of Joe Coon Trapper and say he did the trapping- if he had to use the required protocal- he got chewing. Again, duh.
Methods boys- if you don't believe they make a difference, you have a lot to learn.
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bmp
Nov 19, 2005 8:23:07 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 19, 2005 8:23:07 GMT -6
Ok Tman but you state excessive chewing what is that? and do you really think you could limit the chewing on a 1.5 reg jaw enough to get it to pass With the thresholds in place? Because you can't change them and the "methods" otherwise your fitting the testing to acheive a passing score, and then it takes the "tool" the 1.5 out of the testing. Do you see that? We can not do both or it is testing methods and not the tool, that gets changed once the thresholds are messed with!!!!! Who knows then maybe we could test a #3 double laminated on coons and may get a passing score with the reduced injury scores and dragging, are you ready to call a #3 a coon trap?
Also the BMP is not the SE Minniesota Tman coon BMP, these are guidlines meant to be used in as wide an area as possible, there not guidlines to be broken down into micro units of the US. Your "methods" and the "tool" would have to work in other areas besides your trapline before they would be accepted as anything!!! Good Day!
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bmp
Nov 19, 2005 18:52:12 GMT -6
Post by SgtWal on Nov 19, 2005 18:52:12 GMT -6
The E. Coyote BMP states on page 3 that a trap has passed if it holds at least 60% of the target animals that set the trap off. On page 10 it lists examples of traps that are acceptable as BMP compliant. Of the 8 examples given 5 required modifications to pass. Either 4 coiling or laminations. Only 3 passed unaltered. " Any trap that meets these specifications is concidered a BMP trap,regardless of brand or source of modifications." ( Page 12 E. Coyote BMP) On each page where traps specifications are described they give the jaw dimensions, closing speed, jaw closing force, and any modifications needed. One line describes the acceptable springs. Of these not one lists flat steel springs. I find it hard to believe that NO ONE, thought to include the 3N or any longspring in the testing, even as a baseline. Especially as this has been a mainstay of ADC and USDA for centuries. I use longspring #3s as my first trap of choice. Why? Because just like hamburgers I like them. I have faith in them, they work well for me, and I have a hundred of them. Indiana requires an offset jaw so I use them. My backup traps are #3 jumps both single and double springs. The few coils I do have are reserved for summer work, or when I just plain run out of traps. They freeze down too easy, and if I have a thrown trap 9 times out of 10 it's a coil. I don't do labor intensive modifications they just aren't cost effective. A trap is an expendable asset like a nail is to a carpenter, or a cartridge is to a hunter. My anchor systems are not attached until I get to the set and when a trap is damaged it goes into the parts bin. When traps are lost or stolen it hurts less when I didn't spend an hour turning a hogs ear into a silk purse. Just how many non hunters watch hunting shows? If they do it's as a visitor to a hunters home or a glance as they play "spin the dial" on a Sunday afternoon. The end to the kill shot on TV came in the 1970's as the American Hunter, which was a prime time show back then, came under fire from the urban types who wanted the show off the air. Deleting the kill was an attempt to prolong the shows life and it just became a custom on many shows that play to major urban states. It isn't a universal action either, many shows on the outdoor networks show the kills now. I have found in my ADC business that most customers are less concerned with my capture method than in the animals ultimate fate. As long as it will be released alive and unharmed they are happy. THAT is the type of people who will NEVER come to accept ANY trap if the animal is fated to die. That is my point. These people you are worried about are few and very far between. I'm talking about a person who is truly concerned about the animal's welfare and yet, will still support the animal being harvested. I haven't met any of them yet. I've met a ton who worried about the animal. Same with who worried about kids and pets. Darn few who supported a harvest and were too concerned about how it happened. Do you really think the folks who watch Sinefeld, Will and Grace, Oprah, or The OC will accept a harvest by traps no matter how we pad them? Sorry. I don't like anything that narrows the door that they are trying to close on me.
wayne
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