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Post by foxtail on Dec 3, 2004 10:07:13 GMT -6
Driving down the road yesterday, I had much time to think about stuff because the radio died and I am too cheap to replace it.
It got me to thinking about the issue with the BMPs.
If the BMPs are finally finished and they are implemented as laws in some states, and they cause us problems(like they claim they won't) Will those who oppose us demand that there are more bmp studies done in other areas, such as deer hunting, duck hunting, predator hunting, hook size for fishing?
Allow me to elaborate.
Lets say for the sake of argument that some clowns decide we need a bmp on fishing. Pike require a size X hook, and trout require a size Y hook. Soon we will have to target specific species and have to release all fish caught that are caught with the “wrong” size hook.
Duck hunting, BMPs are done on ducks and geese. You have to use #2 steel on woodies. #BB on geese. The list continues.
The game warden comes and now instead of looking for lead on the water, he now makes you show that you have all the right sizes of shot for the ducks in your bag.
And so on and so on…..
Now back to trapping, our main concern,
Mink are only allowed in a #1 sized jawspread trap. You have a #4 out for beaver. You end up with a mink in it. Now you have to surrender the mink to the DNR, who will be more than happy to waste it for you in the name of selling it after it has ridden around in the back of a CO truck for a week in Oct.
You get a beaver in a front foot catch in a #11. 11’s are not approved for beav. “Hand it over”.
See my point?
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Post by trappnman on Dec 3, 2004 11:11:56 GMT -6
interesting view- and it would not surprise me to see it implemented- after all, the cruelty issue in fishing is a big issue now...
The thing that irks me, is that the BMP people KNOW that 99.99999% of the coon trappers out there, the production trappers, will continue to use 1.5s on coon. They don't care.....as I was told..."then just fox trap..."
I know that the BMPs are not intended to be law- at least by the people working on them...but I do not have a doubt in the world, within a few years, we will be getting states that implement the BMPs as law.....If I am wrong...fantastic!
The BMPs for coyote- are decent- because they show that what the coyote trapper has learned what works the most efficently in held animals, etc.
THe BMPs dovetail quite nicely with that- "science follows fact"...but unfortunately, in using the same arbitrary injury thresholds that were used on coyotes (gee....a pig is a dog is a coyote is a coon is a boy...?) science does NOT follow fact....
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 15:53:46 GMT -6
First off bmp's will never be done as long as advancements are made to equipment, there is no done date as of now, also BMP's have been in livestock longer than we have been testing traps! The BMP's are living documents, as new methods and products develope in the future. There is alot to be done with the bmp's and as long as funding can be achieved more will be done. There talking about e files available to the public sometime down the road. AS far as some clowns, make no mistake all 50 state wildlife agencys have backed this process! Your whole point of a mink in a beaver trap sounds good, but I see no state trying to enforce such a law! State wildlfie agencys aren't going to court to get something thrown out, if it happens that why it will be done away with or reworded. Also don't forget it is up to your state and mine as to how much if any of these living documents they implament into there laws as well. Some states may others may not use any of this information, except to combat the anti's in a court of law with factual information, pertaining to keeping trapping rights in there states. The IAFWA is more than just the BMP! They put on excellent courses for state agencys as well, and teach you how to combat anti's and the untruths they spread, most importantly they show you hwo to do this in a positive way, without comming off combative or negative.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 16:10:22 GMT -6
I don't need lectures on how to oppose antis.
I've been doing it for 40 plus years.
And I sure don't need advise from an agency that under the guise of helping trappers is actually HURTING trappers rights.
The Veternarians of the US do not speak for me- they might speak for you.
And rest assured that NOT ALL PARTICIPANTS HAVE TRAPPINGS BEST INTERESTS AT HEART.
Thus the debate about bmps.
you sure have a lot of "I can't see" or "it won't happen"
How do you know?
look how those stupid snaring laws some states have are now the "accepted model" for other states.
Perhaps a bmp that only allows the WS lock- would you accept that?
anyone who feels bmps won't be made law in some states is being very naive.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 16:31:15 GMT -6
Boy tman, you just can't see the clearing through the trees! The states have FULL Power to change there wildlife laws as to the will of the people! It's been that way from the very beginning of game laws! Hunters cry because there isn't enough of this or too much of that, landowners cry because they aren't getting there fair share of the pie! It is up to the states and there agencys and legislators to hash these problems out! Can't you see bmp or no bmp there will be states threatend with anti trapping bills in the future? I would much rather have documentation and people behind me from out side of my home state, than to have nothing but a group of trappers trying to convey the message without any factual information! We tried that for years and look at the states that lost trapping! The days of a man slapping 1.5 on his hand in court and saying look it doesn't hurt are gone. WE need factual data and experts in other fields to back us! As far as your opposing anti's for 40 years, thats great but I can tell you that get in front of that camera and let these experts ask the really tough questions and your outcome will be much different than you might think. No time just do it cold, I thought I was decent too until, the people staffed in the IAFWA and had the camera rolling they critique your answers to some very tough questions and show you how to do it better. They have on staff a well know news anchor that used to do news in Minnieapolis, MInn a very sharp guy and his insight and how we can better deal with news media and the general public was well worth the time. Look the bottom line is the states have had the power before BMP's and will after, and if anything with this data I don;'t see many groups like PETA or others looking to get on the BMP bandwagon and admitting our data proves our equipment is as good as we say it is. So tell me where this pressure to implament BMP's will come from? Tell me the source. If they are implamented it would be from moderate states, that have been or with switching of power lean more towards to this line of thinking, again BMP or not that can/will happen. I would be willing to bet Colorado,Washington, and others would have loved to have this data and backing when there states decided to outlaw trapping!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 16:44:28 GMT -6
One more thought on the BMP's in the beginning there was a risk for trappers, all be it slite because of STATE Power! I would agree there are those vets that are anti trapping, but where will they be in there home states after sitting on this board and signing there John Henry on documents, that clearly state we find x,y, and z acceptable in terms of trapping equipment and means of trapping? Most would be hard pressed or simply washed off as 2 faced, if they would support anti trapping legislation in there state after having gone through these many test and giving there approvel? Yet the states still have the power to implament or not these studys. You don't see that working in the states hands?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 18:18:03 GMT -6
I see this quite clearly- you are trying to defend- by going around in circles- a bogus coon bmp- from what I hear, of ocurse.
NO freaking practical coon trap is going to come out of the bmps- and don't tell me cage traps and specific traps.
State wildlife agencies control the laws i nteir states? Please- don't even go there.
Heres what I see- you participated in a coyote study- so you are an expert on the coon study.
Whereras- even though I personally know a lot of the mucky mucks in the BMP process, spent a lot of time in phone calls and emails with them, debated it within the FTA- and I don't know crap?
my daughter says it best...."whatever..."
For the last time- I endorse the coyote bmps.
I NEVER have supported the coon process and never will.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 24, 2005 20:28:34 GMT -6
Are you going to support the second Coyote BMPs, that is where they might up the threshold again, and tell you, you have to use #3 soft catch, call me a cynic no problem
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Post by nib420247 on Jan 25, 2005 9:08:09 GMT -6
My problem with the bmp is very simple. I cant use snares hear, a 220 would get a cat lovin landowner throwin me out for good and not do much for the overall thought of us trappers, and that leaves me what option? right a 1.5 duke, but now if they outlaw that trap, I would lose most my arsonal, have to sell them for pennies, couldent use them for fox, coyotes eat em to fast, then what? I could eather get a trailer for the atv so I could drag all my cages around, or what the grizz? ha dont get me wrong I think the grizz is awesome and it has its place, but I cant afford 6 doz. and if I could I probably wouldent, I'll give up on the coon and just catch them as incidentals, probably in my #2 yote traps, that would be better than my 1.5 right?
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Post by foxtail on Jan 28, 2005 16:06:45 GMT -6
I guess that the bottom line is that the BMP's for trapping is someone's idea of a way to bull nuts us into thinking they have our best interests in mind when they do not. (in my oppinion)
BMP's may be good for some things and processes, but they will not be good for trapping or any other outdoor sport.
All of this crap could easily be done away with and be easily replaced very effectively with mandatory trappers education.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 28, 2005 18:23:14 GMT -6
No foxtail it would not. You would still have the foreign pressure, the pressure from the anti's, because even though you have educated trappers, where is the data and facts on the equipment In trappers ed? There would be none, no different than hunters ed, They attack the gun first and the gunowner second. The fatcual data is what is needed in both cases, without it your lossing ground to the otherside. The people in the middle that are truly undecided on hunting and trapping, want facts backed by data and sound and competant people producing those facts, no propaganda and the such. There sick of lip service and lies.
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Post by SgtWal on Jan 28, 2005 18:41:45 GMT -6
Which invokes the most sympathy, a dog bouncing around in a 1.75 un-modified, or the same dog bouncing in a Softcatch? The answer is that there is no difference. Facts and evidence kept O.J. out of jail. But to most people he should have been hanged. They couldn't get past that blonds smiling face to ask the hard questions. The anti's will use the same tactics they always use and the people will believe what they want to believe. Facts be damned. We may win in a court, but we will lose in the court of public opinion. If the public have a say we are dead meat.
wayne
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Post by foxtail on Jan 28, 2005 19:12:26 GMT -6
Hogwash.
The BMP process is going to shove retarded regulations down our throats, just wait and see.
Mandatory firearms safety courses sullied the anti claims that we just went out uneducated and blasted anything.
Now we have proof that each hunter has been trained to respect the resourse and the weapon.
If individuals choose to violate this, it is them not all of us.
The same thing goes for trapping.
The bmp's are going to be run by those who don't know, for those who don't know, to be used against those who DO know.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 28, 2005 20:07:22 GMT -6
sgtwal, your dealing on the extreme end of the spectrum, yes I would agree dog issues are always a problem, BMP or No BMP, but the anti's are against trapping wildlife and the no fur slogans first and foremost. No the people who are real undecideds, which is the majority in the US when it comes to both hunting and trapping, with facts and education can see the light, there will be some unless it hits there pocket book in anyway won't care, but a big majoirty want the truth, there was a phone study done, quite exstensive, that showed, most didn't beleive groups like PETA and others are portraying the truth, but they also feel that way about ourside as well. They wan thard factual information, from a middle ground showing pros and cons to what we do, showing the improvements we are willing to make without the government stepping in. Alot of the middle beieved in there Game Depts to make good sound decisions, the BMP's and things like destroying the myth are the way to go, we must be proactive on this, we seen what the attitude to hell with them, I'm going to do what I want gets us, and berating those in the middle will be a sure defeat. The BMP process is going to shove retarded regulations down our throats, just wait and see. What regulations from the studies done to date would you be talking about being shoved down our throats? Mandatory firearms safety courses sullied the anti claims that we just went out uneducated and blasted anything. Tell that to Ruger arms, Browning and others that are afraid of big law suits, fashioned after the tobacco deals, because some fool goes out and shoots someone with there name brand! The anti gun crowd will always exsist, because hunters/gunowners rank in big numbers and have the clout, we can fend off most of this, but ask the gun makers why there cost have went up in the last ten years, there biggest cost has been to defense lawyers.
The bmp's are going to be run by those who don't know, for those who don't know, to be used against those who DO know. The BMPs are run by your game dept, mine and every other trapper in the US. Until you get informed, I wouldnt make such a brash statement. There are many good men involved in this process, my question is are you? Have you been? Many good trappers chose to be pro active in this fight, and not sit around as a sideline quarter back! It's easy never to be wrong when you don't partcipate! If you rank yourself in the catagory as those who fo know, then by all means spread that knowledge, with your fellow trappers for the benefit of all. I bet you would catagorize alot of the do knows, in the very states that no longer have trapping?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2005 6:12:12 GMT -6
Please list all the trappers involved in the bmps and their catch numbers.
Ah- so you equate the bmps with the myth video as a slice of real life?
That truly explains everything.
But its nice having an bmp expert on here.
Lets discuss how the pressure from the EC violates free trade agreements. How interferrence by other govenments in our trade- domestic and international- violates international law.
Are you a supporter of a World Economic Trade Commission- that all trade procedures and all exports/inports need approval from abroad?
Are you a supporter of blackmail type politics?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2005 6:21:10 GMT -6
Where do you come up with these things-
a big majority of people want the truth on hunting and trapping?
please post a link to that survey.
Nonsense- the BIG majority could give a rats behind EITHER way.
The bmps were started as APPEASEMENT!
as a response to pressure from the European markets.
Plain and simple. Some say this isn't true- that bmps were already on the planning board and were full throttle forward before the European warnings and threats..
Well, Some people say entanglemenmt is BAD for coon trapping.
TRAPPERS tried to level the field by inparting their knowledge of animal behavior.
the VETS pooh pooed that real quick.
The same VETS by the way- that WILL NOT APPROVE OR ACCEPT drowning as a viable dispatch method on coon, mink and perhaps muskrat . Perhaps otter? Who knows?
Drowning is a verbotem subject in the bmps!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 29, 2005 7:55:54 GMT -6
Please list all the trappers involved in the bmps and their catch numbers.
I wish I had access to all of that info, the ones I know personnally,are good men, great trappers, and can put up numbers as well.
Ah- so you equate the bmps with the myth video as a slice of real life?
No I equate them both being proactive moves in this ongoing debate to keep trapping.
Lets discuss how the pressure from the EC violates free trade agreements. How interferrence by other govenments in our trade- domestic and international- violates international law. Not for NAFA and it would suit me fine to tariff the crap out of all imports, the problem being the American consumers, everyone wants things as cheap as they can get them, therefore that means alot of foreign made product and more leverage in trade issues! For alot of these foreign country's.
Are you a supporter of a World Economic Trade Commission- that all trade procedures and all exports/inports need approval from abroad?
Are you a supporter of blackmail type politics? No and NO, I buy as much American made product as I can, in fact I search it out alot of times before a major purchase.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2005 8:16:50 GMT -6
If you don't know who did the trapping, where the trapping was done, the experience of the trapper, the conditions etc- you don't know any more about it than I do.
I doubt that you know more than 1 or 2 coon trappers PERSONALLY that took part in the coon bmps tests.
and it doesn't matter- I brought it up only because you made a broad, blanket statement concerning the qualifications of the trappers. More likely than not- the participants were choosen because they HAD THE TIME.
the whole point of all of this is simply this- not all bmps are equal.
You read a post FROM a coon bmp trapper.
What did he say?
Pretty much what I said.
Either 1 of 2 things is true:
All bmps are created equal and all have the same validity.
1) True
2) False
You seem eager to have me accept the coon bmps but are unwlling to do the same on snaring bmps.
Seems hypocritical to me.
and don't bring out the old saw that the snaring bmps were designed for LIVE snaring.
ALL the bmps were DESIGNED for LIVE capture.
Death, as I am sure you know- is the ultimate negative score.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 29, 2005 18:01:09 GMT -6
Not when your dealing with the conibear BMP's that canada is working on! The faster the death higher the score, why? because that is how that tool is to be used!
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Post by foxtail on Jan 29, 2005 19:27:32 GMT -6
But now, weren't the BMP's only going to be for foothold traps in the start? Didn't they say that they were not going to touch snares and bodygrips? Didn't they say that the BMP's will not be used as a basis for regulations? That it will not change the legality of any traps? If the first 2 points are no longer true, how long before the third one is also untrue?
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