BMP how did the coyote cuffs fair in testing?

[trappincoyotes39]

Was wondering if anyone knows how they did in the bmp study? I beleive they have been tested in the western bmp last year? Anyone have any thing on these traps scores?

[trappincoyotes39]

Ok talked to Tom B via internet, he said the #22 was tested last year and the #33 will be done this year.
The #22 had a high catch rate and holding rate and was second in injury scores to a padded trap, they tested with the smaller offset 1/4" since switching to 3/8" offset feels the injury scores would be at or near the top

[trappnman]

they tested with the smaller offset 1/4" since switching to 3/8" offset feels the injury scores would be at or near the top

So the bigger the offset the higher injury score?

[dj88ryr]

Hmmmm, would this mean that regular jaws are the best tool?? ;D

[CoonDuke]

I would have interpreted that statement just the opposite. The larger offset would have better scores. Help us out tc35.

[Stef]

CC failed in Canada!

Sorry, don't know more

Stef

[trappincoyotes39]

yes the larger offset is in fact are better on the animal, I'm sorry if this confused anyone.
It only makes sense the more blood gets to the paw the better the paw will be that is fact, offsetwill always be better for coyotes than reg jaws, also with a 3/8" off set it is holding the coyote more by there foot design than added pressure to the foot, the wide jaws and offset combine to make a very nice holding trap for coyotes.

[Dusty]

yes the larger offset is in fact are better on the animal

How ya figure?

It only makes sense the more blood gets to the paw the better the paw will be

Agreed. But....

with a 3/8" off set it is holding the coyote more by there foot design than added pressure to the foot

If you have enough offset that the bit of the critter in the trap - whatever that bit may be - can flop around, you aren't doing that critter any favors. That flopping causes abrasion, which, in my somewhat limited experience, can and usually does lead to other nastiness that we all want to avoid.

If you are holding the bit that is in the trap with the same amount of pressure, you are restricting blood flow the same amount regardless of whether the jaws are touching on the fired and empty trap or offset by any amount. If the offset is large enough to allow increased bloodflow it is large enough to put less pressure on the foot and therefore increase the chances of that foot slopping around inside the trap. If the offset is not large enough to decrease pressure on the critter - ie, the springs are somewhere short of completely up - the offset is doing absolutely nothing other than it's intended purpose, to allow the springs to close farther with a given diameter obstruction between the trap jaws, thereby increasing the mechanical advantage of the springs.

The only way you can have an offset greater than the diameter of the foot you plan on sticking in the trap and not increase foot damage is by adding teeth. Teeth are ugly and evil looking, and therefore illegal in most of America. A properly designed offset, toothed trap (the 114 Newhouse is the only really great design I'm familiar with) will reduce abrasion, freezing, and swelling. Any other offset produced by removal of jaw material (as opposed to the completely useless lug design) does two and only two things: increases the holding power of the trap by allowing the springs to rise further, and makes trappers feel peachy about something that just isn't happening.

I'm going to copy the meat of this to a new post, as well as leaving it here, as I feel it bears further discussion.

[trappincoyotes39]

Dusty look at a coyote cuff, better yet I will post some views of these traps, you get movement in factory traps due to there sheared thinned jaw approach!
Wider is better! The wider the jaw the more power displacement, the better the hold, the coyotes foot in comparison to the nice wide jaw keeps foot movement to a minimum!
The wire lever's and jaw design of the coyote cuff and the sterling, keep the foot in place, and with a wider offset you will have less foot damage, look at a softcatch an offset trap with the padded effect of the rubber, add the rubber after the fact and have no gap, you will have more foot damage.
I will agree with you that cheap factory offset traps add little to foot comfort over standard jawed factory traps, but not when compairing to the high end traps, there isn't a rough/sharp surface/edge on these traps the jaw is wider, to displace energy and provide a better hold, and yes with a lower foot catch still holds very very well and allows "some" more circulation period. www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p503f1944684e0415ff1a5b4f8349a0aa/f9b29acd.jpg[/img] Ask how many live market coyote trappers who need a great looking foot, use standard jawed traps?

[trappincoyotes39]

these trap have a full 1/2" jaw I know of no other trap on the market with a jaw that wide, also the beauty of these traps are you can have a max of 3/8" offset or anything in between by simply filing or grinding down the so called bad built in lug on the jaw.
Funny how both the sterling and coyote cuff use a lug type offset, built into the cast jaw. You would have even less foot damage with slightly weaker springs, but these traps are made for holding livestock killers, or fall fur trapping with a superior low loss rate either 24-72 trap check or anything in between, be it snow,rain, muddy conditions these traps don't fail very often, in your weather conditions in Alaska frozen conditions being the norm, no matter what you use in low temps your going to have frozen feet due to the circulation problem.good luck ;D

[Dusty]

With a coyote in the CC, are the lugs touching the opposite jaw? If so, perhaps the really wide jaws are changing the equation enough that I'm just flat wrong in what I said. If not, I'll maintain that the offset is doing nothing useful.

The CC looks to be well engineered - offsetting by removing jaw material wouldn't gain you anything if the trap was designed as offset. That isn't the case with teh Bridgers etc.

You're right about the freezing. It is even more of a problem with rubber jaws that wrap further around the foot and retard bloodflow even more. I wonder if that isn't also the case in more temperate climates?

I don't have a beef with offsets per say, just the ignorance that surrounds them. In OK, and seems NM where WQ is, offset is mandated for double-spring traps. Your #4 jumps are fine, but you have to offset #11 DLS. Offsetting by wrapping a jaw with a single piece of 16 ga wire is perfectly legal.

I'm not immune to ignorance - I've never used a CC or similar. Enlighten me!

[trappincoyotes39]

yes the lugs hit the opposite jaw, I will try to phrase it this way, take a 50lb ball lat on the ground and set it on your stomach, you will feel all 50lbs correct? Now lay a 3ft by 3ft plywood board over your stomach and lay the ball on the plywood, tell me what you feel more?
Yes if you have a trap say with 70 lb springs, it is still 70lbs of force holding them shut but with the wider jaw and bigger offset, the weight is more evenly distrabuted over a larger area, in turn holding well and yet making a more paw comfortable trap.

[trappincoyotes39]

I will include it depends how high up the catch is, a lower foot catch and they will touch lug to opposite jaw, higher up catches, they won't be touching, but you still have good looking feet, not all the time as we know coyote all fight a trap different, but enough for me to justify there cost. Dusty you may want to try a few for your far north furbearers, they will hold about any critter that can get in them.

[coyoteman37]

I have been live saleing fox red and grey for about 7 years and this is the first year for yotes . I do control work for hunt club and plantations etc.. I have used 11/2 victor soft catch with #2 coils I have held yotes in them but the jawspread was a bad compromise . the #3victor soft catch pans bent dogs bent frame twisted and jaws popped . the #2 bmi softy was interesting a execelent fox trap for the live market they held yotes .now these were kind on the greys and good to the reds and held three yotes and they were toast . These traps did great for one season ok for two and that is that . They are good disposible fox traps . Now dont forget the retooling of rbbers =time and more money than what i want and when a frame gets trashed a new trap is needed . Since then I have went to #2 bridger offset and laminated top and bottom . I have worked with diff offsets coils jaw spread etc.. the #2 3/16 or 1/4 in offset works fine for the live market . I have used #3 with 1.65 coils and they have held yotes for the market but alot of steel for a 25.00 dollar grey . I would rather hold the reds and yotes and pelt out the greys . This system does not hurt dogs . Also if you have a swollen paw dexamethazone will take out any swelling overnight compared to a cut from standard jaw or a bad rbber that got torn . these are my findings I have staked and now use more drags and have noticed even less dammage except the greys .

[ChrisM]

and was second in injury scores to a padded trap

Thats not correct.

In fact, of all the traps which were tested in the west and met the threshold, the 22CC had the highest cumlative injury score (53.8) A score of less than 55 is required to pass. Not that it really matters. The important thing is that it passed and will be included in the Western Coyote BMP

The 22 was very high in effeciency

[BrandonH]

Chris,
Any word when the western is gonna be available for us to check out?? Thanks

[ChrisM]

Its in the final draft stage now with the adhoc committee. Then will go up the chain to the International

Not sure when its planned for release.

If you have seen the Eastern Coyote BMP, the western version will be very similar except for a different list of traps and possibly some minor language changes which have been proposed.

[Stef]

the western version will be very similar

Is it ready?

Where can I get a copy?

Stef

[Wackyquacker]

Just a tweak Dusty, but in NM we are required to have all steel footholds offset. Now what exactly they mean by offset remains unclear to me. Before last season a gap was an offset (bailing wire), Last season the proc. stated 3/16" and for this upcoming season the proc states 1/16".

ANYHOW...my traps are all offset with at least 3/16". Many have been made into offsets by either welding, grinding or both and some where born that a way. Also, I have trapped with traps that for any practicle purpose, other than being street legal, where not offset (these are as close as I have come to regular jaws). Across the board, the only thing that made a significant and consistant difference in reducing foot damage were laminations ( heavey cast jaws not with standing).

Two things about wide offsets, the large percentage of people are on the fence when it comes to trapping and inhumane treatment of animals. I have NEVER shown one of these fence sitters my offsets, and now offset + lamination, and felt that they didn't leave with an appreciation of my concern for the welfare of the critters. That is worth the gap in my oppinion.

Secondly, and I am now entering the relhm of conjecture, there may be a significant difference in blood flow restriction with offset laminated jaws. This difference I would liken to a turnicate vs a constriction bandage...the turnicate is 100% and a constriction bandage is ALMOST 100%. This relatively small difference is critical in saving life and llimb and may impact greatly on inflamation induced damage to a restrained foot. I rarely see significant foot swelling with my laminated traps whereas in my dbl #3 (which aren't laminated) the feet are almost always swollen below the jaw.

Sooooo, I like the laminated offsets and even if I were to relocate I'd still select this type of trap. They make me look better in the eyes of the public, they reduce (actually damn near elliminate) severe outwardly observable damage, and in the large traps, are the only ones that passed for the eastern coyotye. Chris, any large traps pass the western tests that were not laminated and / or offset - laminated?

The engineered offsets or any that permit the levers to travel high into a complete locking position should aid in reducing foot damage by holding the appendage more firmly.