wild vs. domestic canids

[musher]

I often compare the actions of my dogs to those of wild canids. The way they work wind, interact with each other, mark territory, etc. can be useful to a trapper -I think.
However, how useful are the actions of a field trial beagle (sorry Steve!) to a trapper? For nose work and pack work I can see Beagles as being good teachers. What about a lap dog? Does the way an individual husky marking territory transfer itself well to the actions of a wolf?

I read today, on www.cabelasiditarod.com in an article called "good for the Gould" ,about the Iditarod teams running over the carcass of a fresh wolf killed moose. I can't see my dogs doing that without a major tangle! I am also amazed that the wolves were both as non-belligerent and as non-wary as they were.

Is the 10000 years of dog domestication still close enough for theorizing regarding behaviour transfer to wild canids?

I do think some breeds are wilder than others. For example the Canadian Eskimo dog which must be fed raw meat on every second day is one example. Northern dogs that are left on their own during non-working summer months on islands, where survival of the fittest reigns, are another.

Any thoughts?

[trappnman]

there is an old saying- "in 3 generations I can make a greyhound out of a beagle"

What do you mean you never heard of it? LOL- well, an old saying amound old beaglers then....

but what it means is that in animals like dogs- just a few generations can make major changes.

So how far..really... are dogs from the wild?

If you want to read an old book thats very interesting regarding breeding theroys of dogs- read "The Trouble with Dogs" by Vet. Dr Leon Whitney.

His thoughts were that many dogs breeds are worthless- and could not even reproduce on their own without human help (breeds that need artfical insemination, cesarians to give birth, over,underbites so they can't bite the cords, etc..

Many breeds also were bred just for looks alone- deleting many of the survival or working dog traits- Irish setters, some spanials, etc..

The exceptions were real working breeds and hunting breeds- because dogs that are breed to work for a living- are culled.
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So- even though you were being facietious regarding beagles- would a fd trial beagle for example be a good trapline dog?

What are the traits he was bred for- 1) accuracy in nose- there is NO better nose in a dog than a beagle-
2) temprament- cooperative, friendly, bold, inquisitive 3) physical ability- sound in all aspects

What do we need trapline dog for- assuming no sled pulling, etc? For really a few simple things- 1) companionship 2) trailing drags 3) baying game 4) defining trails 5) scent post markers/finding 6) lure/foot placement position 7) reactions to lures

So- yes, a Fd trial beagle- one who MINDS- can be as useful a trapline dog as any other dog.

If you want a trapline dog to fight and subdue your game- well, a beagle wouldn't be the top choice...but for everything else....
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I see I avoided the question- how much do dogs tell us about wild canines- more later

[dj88ryr]

I think our Weimaraner would fit all of the qualifications as a trapline dog with a few exceptions. He could not take extended periods in sub zero weather conditions, he could but I doubt ever would pull a sled. He has an exceptional nose, as is widely known by human search and rescue organizations. Weimaraners were very visable among the dogs searching the ruins at the WTC after 911. They are also used for missing persons searches more and more.
As for bringing down game, Weimaraners were originally breed for Elk hunting in Germany, the dogs are powerful enough to bring down Elk when they had to. I know he can out pace any coyote, and posses the stamina to run them down. Any doubters are welcome to take him on a leashed walk at the PTA.
He very much will point out scent posts on the trap line, and I can easily identify travel routes using his nose and by just watching from a distance, and let him lead me, I get into trouble when I argue with him about where I think the critters are, he is more right than wrong.
As far as getting anything other than what they can tell us with their nose is doubtful though, I don't think that domestics posses the alertness of wild canines, or the suspicion, which wild dogs use to keep themselves out of trouble.

[gcs]

Interesting comparing the two, most of my recent dog experiance is with working herding dogs,Border Collies,Austrailian Shepherds and cattle dogs. The Border Collies especially seem to "act" more like their wild cousins.Very alert to EVERYTHING going on,never miss a chance to mark a scent post,and seem more "wolf like" than other common breeds. I have one Border Collie and one Cattle dog now, and their "pack" dynamics are enlightening.I make sets for them and it's amazing how few times I "catch "them,lol. I guess I need to learn to guide better,lol.

[coyote]

how TALL (say, at the shoulder) is the average coyote?

the reason I ask is that I would think a dog of about the same height would be INVALUABLE for trap placement studies.

place your lure on a backing, and then watch where Fido steps to check it out...place trap THERE.

[gcs]

Coyote, both these dogs here are about coyote size, 45-50#, A lured set sucks them right in,but they stay at the set a surprisingly short time. They move in,make a few sniffs and move on,sometimes they'll roll in it. a lot of times they'll move off 10-15' and urinate,(these are both females). Last time I tried this,I used 2 different lures with a football size rock as a backing with bait tunneled under the rock,"trap" location was about 10" back and offset a little,the Border collie moved in sniffed the set maybe 10 sec. than rolled,missed the "pan" every step by inches. I know I'm only playing with myself but no coyotes here to practice on.lol.

[rk660]

I know if ya set a trap around two week old dog tracks, you get the dog every time, wish i could say the same for coyotes.