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Post by Dusty on Jul 5, 2005 12:36:52 GMT -6
Widespread occurrence of a domestic dog mitochondrial DNA haplotype in southeastern US coyotes.
Adams JR, Leonard JA, Waits LP.
See above post for abstract. _Someone's_ considered it!
One of PW's pubs states that he couldn't find dog in the NE wolves. Of course, he'd have a hard time pushing for protection if he did.
When I was a kid, I once caught a coyote in a cow carcass. Thing was caked in mud, but otherwise very coyote-like. Took it home and washed it off, and it still looked just like a coyote - but was colored EXACTLY like a blue heeler!
The problem is, all these things are so damn closely related - canids are the typical example used to demonstrate the loopholes in the Biological Species Concept - that we can't really define any of them. Hell, they can't tell each other apart!
Getting that message across to the general public is, I think, one of the huge failings of public education in the US. Most people have no idea how science works, don't understand the concept of species - and it's limitations, give equal credit to peer-reviewed literature and people like Wilson and Gordon Haber, yet insist on their "right" to manage wildlife through the ballot box. Kinda like letting me override engineering decisions about how to build bridges by voting!
Our understanding - or lack of one - of what these things are won't really influence what shows up in traps in the NE. It might affect your ability to set a trap there, though.
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Jul 5, 2005 14:06:02 GMT -6
Ok I did some ear measurements. First- eastern yote from ME, weighed 32 pounds or so, ears 3 1/2 ". 2nd -western yote from ID, ears 5 1/2", judging by size of animal it weighed 30 pounds or so. 3rd- large timber wolf from AK, likley LW 85-90 pounds, ears 4 1/2". So you can't tell me the eastern yotes are not a special subspecies of some sort. Measurements are from taxidermy mounts.
Another observation- an Indiana yote vs NY and ME. I got a huge yote from Bob, the ears are long, like a western yote. Nearly every ear I have seen and worked with on NY, ME and PA yotes have been the shorter ears. There is something going on here. I don't beleive in the wolf cross part much though, I still say there is this old subspecies that were the "wolves" the settlers spoke of and that they killed most of off. Remnants still survived perhaps in Quebec in pockets. Then western yotes migrated and mated with these then continued the migrations, and now we have the eastern yote modern subspecies. The old subspecies was likley something like the red wolf, but perhaps a different animal from those. Its known the red wolf of the southeast has been diluted by crossbreeding with yotes. They even look like big yotes in many ways.
BTW, when canis mates with canis, you generally do not get mules. I don't know what the breeding season is on wolf dog hybrids though, if its like the coydogs or not. What is it if a yote susbspecies mates with another yote subspecies? Well you get a yote yote cross LOL, and they can breed just fine generation after generation.
I also note the coats of eastern yotes, not all are course and ugly. I have seen a few finer furred ones from NY, all from same area. Mixing going on between subspecies? Or just genetic differences in same subspecies?
Well whatever an eastern yote is, or whatever it isn't, they are still neat critters. I'll take a wolfy looking eastern brush wolf over a western yote anyday, for doing a mount. Although those pale Montanas are pretty nice too.
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Jul 5, 2005 14:14:19 GMT -6
Zag, I looked at your furs there, one has wide short ears- like a wolf. Tell me more about this northern red wolf animal. And look at the color variations! One looks like a western yote color even.
What do your largest furs measure tip to tip when put up? I have a tanned NY red color that is 68" tip to tip. There are wolf pelts out there same size to just a bit bigger, such as 72-74". Not yearling cubs. I have a yearling cub skin, its normal yote in size, but has wider face, and bigger feet.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 5, 2005 17:12:18 GMT -6
lots of wishful thinking I think. I have to agree with Dusty 100%- I've said the same thing, perhaps not as elequently- for years. Of course the NE coyotes are a different subspecies- and so are the MN ones and so are the Alabama ones and so are the Nebraska ones. Each has characteristics. One feature of that subspecies is size-
and to have one subspeices any any animal bigger or smaller in size is not unusual. Deer are classic example- twenty some subspecies ranging in size from good bucks being 250 lbs live weight to other areas 125 is a bigun'.
take coon- I honestly can state that I know positve I never took a 15 lb or less coon this season- 99% above 20 lbs and many, many 25-30. A true 40+ lb coon every few years.
yet NY coon don't obtain this size- or NH coon or Florida coon- its a trait of OUR subspecies.
Why would extra size make a coyote part wolf? It logically does not.
As far as colors- compare coon again. The colors are different in every region of the country. Some similar? Of course. Some areas have a pale coon, some areas a reddish coon, some areas a dark almost blusih coon.
Bob gets red and black coyotes in Indiana- I get a blond or red one every so often- but our subspecies here does not have that recessive odd color gene- other subspecies do.
As Dusty says- coyotes, beagles wolfs, etc all share a large portion of DNA- and thats simple to see- its not that many years ago that wild canines were wild canines- smae family tree if yo uwould.
Nice to think you are trapping wolves- but in my humble opinion, they are just coyotes.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jul 5, 2005 20:38:11 GMT -6
I would love to see a list of the words "coyote" and "wolf" in various indian languages across the US and Canada. I think there would be some answers there since nobody else seems to have any solid evidence.
It could be simply a nomenclature thing. Our "coyotes" could actually be what our forefathers called wolves.
We in the east could be trapping the same dreaded wolf our ancestors feared and hunted....Not the same as a timber wolf, not the same as a western coyote.
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Jul 5, 2005 22:51:48 GMT -6
What I have been saying.
I personally like the term "brush wolf". I have also seen where people have called eastern yotes wolves in recent years. Some guy in MA or someplace whos dog was attacked by big yotes called them wolves, and I have seen some people call the ME yotes wolves as well. " The wolves were howling last night behind our vacation cabin" Not knowing any better I guess, just like the pioneers. They looked like wolves to them, still look like wolves to some people today.
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Post by Zagman on Jul 6, 2005 5:41:16 GMT -6
Hey, not sure why one would think I entertain some romantic notion that I am trapping wolves.........
Dr. Robert Chambers, a noted coyote authority from the State University of New York, and I have met a few times......he gives talks around the NE about this very subject.
He has research "proving" the wolf DNA thing......I will dig it up.
Believe me...... I dont want them to be wolves either......and the implications and problems that such a distinction could produce....I am happy just trapping coyotes.......
25 years ago, there were no coyotes around here......where was this giant subspecies hiding all this time? That's what I'd like to know.......perhaps they were hidden with the WMD's?
The farms I trap on are family-owned and been around forever....there has not been a huge habitat change......if anything, things are getting more urban all the time.
My orginal point was regarding one's view of research, embracing it when it agrees with ones' own opinions, and discounting it when it doesn't........that's convenient and reminds me of political arguments from either side of the isle. Both sides.......
The other post about Coyotes asks where they came from, how they got here. All indications point to a migration......If this is true, I just don't understand how a 30# coyote crosses the Mississippi, and within a couple decades, changes size and color, without any help from another species, whether if be domestic dog, wolf, or dodo bird.
With all the goofy/useless research out there, it seems logical that someone would have already classified all of these subspecies of coyotes.
So, if there is research saying they do have wolf DNA, does it seem logical to debunk it with an OPINION (no facts) about subspecies research that does NOT exist?
To me, that's just not logical.......
Zagman
BTW: Steph, I have no clue how long these coyotes are. I know many of them bottom out the long, wooden stretchers we use. We had Hunkyboy make us a new design and still may have him make some even larger models, more of a brushwolf stretcher.
While the NAFA standard shows a 9-10" base, that narrowness leaves a lot of extra play in these 50#-plus melonheads.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 6, 2005 6:02:20 GMT -6
let me make real sure I understand your 2 points:
1) 25 years ago, these huge coyotes didn't exist.
so- in that 25 years, a normal coyote has bred with wolves and is now the dominant speices.
2) you are saying the existance of subspeices isn't true- yet they exist in just about all breeds of animals- and even birds and fishes- but in coyotes its speculation?
also- please reread dustys posts- seems like the logical, sceintific truth.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 6, 2005 6:03:55 GMT -6
ah heck- you guys are right- your coyotes ARE half wolf.
It seems logical then that our coon, since they share dna with bears- are half bear- no wonder they are so big!
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Post by SteveCraig on Jul 6, 2005 6:59:39 GMT -6
If the wolf DNA can be proven, then the coyote/wolf could be reclassified and all hunting/trapping of them could be stopped at that point. THIS is the goal. Nothing more/ nothing less. Steve
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Post by Zagman on Jul 6, 2005 7:01:16 GMT -6
This is educational discourse......... What's it called when you answer a question with a question? I am not debating whether this is a SUBSPECIES or not.....I just think this SUBSPECIES is a result some breeding that led to it's existance vs. swimming the Mississippi River and suddenly being Super-Sized. I have one simple question and point.....since all of these animals ARE so closing related, and a beagle is a chihuahua is a wolf is a coyote, why would it ever seem ILLOGICAL that these animals here in the NE, this subspecies, could have some Algonquin or Red Wolf blood/DNA in them? Why is that not believable, especially if some research (some call this "facts") bears this out? If I recall, Dr. Chambers' research indicates that the "migration" of coyotes into NYS was from the north, i.e, Canada. Maine, Northern VT, and even the Adirondacks had their coyotes before we did down here.......and we are getting them before PA, etc, etc. But this has all happened in the last 25-30 years. PA will probably be attacked from the north and from the conventially-thought true west to east "migration". So, let's just focus on one point, whether based on research, facts, opinion, conjecture, or rumor: Why would it be illogical that two species SO closely related in both biological make-up AND size (tough for a coyote to breed with a red fox) as a wolf and a coyote could have, at one time, bred heavily enough to create a larger subspecies? I will say it again.....I view these animals as coyotes. Never once have I ever referred to them otherwise. I don't think they are smarter, I don't think they are tougher to trap, heck, I dont even think they are tougher to hold.......but, I do see some charateristics that are wolf-like AND see no logical reason to deny any past relationships and breeding with other canid relatives...... This is a coyote....with some wolf-like characteristics. Likewise.... Big sub-species next to mangey relative..... Red wolf? LOL Another wolf, I mean, coyote.... Typical, western-looking coyote in NYS: Typical, Northeast, dark, large coyote...... Who says we don't have a consistant color in our eastern coyotes? The furbuyers slobber when they see these...... Zagman Mark- I deleted the coydog picture because it was so oversized and I hate to have to schroll to read. Please repost it if you like in a smaller version. It is a neat picture....Steve
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Post by trappnman on Jul 6, 2005 7:29:18 GMT -6
Answering a "question" with a question..why, I'd call that seeking knowledge.
Nice coyote pictures.
You are missing the point- ALL coyotes have "wolf" dna in them. Was there an occasional cross? maybe. Probably. who knows. But what is certain- is the crosses are not still occuring. In dogs- the popular saying among breeders was that in 3 generations, I can make a chiuahua a greyhound. Point being twofold- long pedigrees are silly and an occasional outcross "disappears" into the gene pool rather quickly. For colors, head characteristics, etc to continually be a fator in each new litter of coyote pups that are born in the NE- would mean constant crosses and recrossing to have any effect at all.
Heres a question for you- why does a coyote that is bigger than the norm (leave out the colors- all are "normal" coyote colors and their existence is simple Mendel genetics) have to be crossed with a wolf- when regional "giants" exist in just about every animal, fish and bird species and yet THEY- are still considered "purebred"?
Another example- we have Canadian geese here- but also have about 100,000 "locally" each year that are the subspecies Giant Canada goose- thought to be extinct until 30 or so years ago and "rediscovered" in Rochester, MN. This bird is heavier, taller, etc that a common goose.
Deer, bass, geese, turkeys (annually, the big turkey contest winners here are in the lower 30 lb range. No one has taken a 35lb bird yet- but it will happen everyday) all vary in size depending on region. Most times, its tied into weather and latitude- but not even close to always. Possums for example- we have a small, scrawny possum here- 1/3 in size to the average southern possum.
Crosses might, might not have occured in the past. Once again- as Dusty pointed out- dogs, coyotes, wolf all share a LOT of DNA- midwest coyotes as well as NE coyotes.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jul 6, 2005 8:03:02 GMT -6
Why would it be illogical that two species SO closely related in both biological make-up AND size (tough for a coyote to breed with a red fox) as a wolf and a coyote could have, at one time, bred heavily enough to create a larger subspecies?
What I'd have to ask- is WHY would they do so more than occasionally? To have such a scvenerio, the populations of both wolf and cooyte would HAVE to be large. Its not something that seems to be going on in today MN, with the largest wolf population in the lower 48 states, or Alaska or Canada?
Not saying it didn't happen, but am curious as to why you think it would be probable?
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 6, 2005 8:56:18 GMT -6
tman, I think you are missing the point. Not to say it never happens, but thereare not wolves running around breeding coyotes. This eastern critter is a new species, not a sub species, created in the last 50 -100 years by a combination of timber, red, coyote and dog. things become extinct and new spoecies develop all the time. been happening since dinosaur days. Generally a 10,000 year process, but by fluke ot by golly eastern coyotes have developed in record time. Now they breed true and have traits of all their common ancesters. If you are looking for a wolf copulating a coyote, you won`t find it. Kind of like neanderthal man and cro magnon man. Neanderthal is said to have died out, but look at where all the world champion weightlifters come from- northern europe! Yet no neanderthals breeding cro magnuns over there. course you have to discount me and sweetie pie.
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Post by Zagman on Jul 6, 2005 8:58:09 GMT -6
I refuse to answer your question until you answer mine! So there!
I think we are hung up on some misunderstandings.....you think that I think these coyotes are 50% wolf and 50% coyote and that the breeding is still occurring, creating on-going hybrids. I never said that.....I am saying that at some point, some time ago, some different blood got mixed into the gene pool and produced a different animal than the coyotes Marty Senneker (northern coyotes) is trapping......they weigh about 28# on the large size. My buddy was out there with Marty this year and "skun" a bunch of them.....
You also say that these are just big coyotes, accept it. Then you also say that ALL coyotes have wolf in them....
You mention the wolves in Minnessota, which I believe are gray wolves OR timber wolves....
I keep saying that Dr Chambers' research has to do with Algonquin wolves and red wolves, both closer to coyote-sized than timber wolf-sized, and both no longer occurring as a known pure species.
Last I knew, the only known pure red wolves left were on an island off the coast of NC, where the coyotes had not reached them yet to breed the pureness out of them.
Between the color phases and actual wolf-like look that many of these dogs have, I cannot accept the theory that it's just body size differences like the Giant Canada. I think there are actually 18 different known subspecies of the Canada goose......from the Giant that you mentioned down to the dimunitive cackling and Aleutian geese, which are about the size of a mallard. The smallest ones, just as info, come from the most northern areas of the Hudson Bay and Alaska.....
With turkeys, bass, Canada Geese, and even raccoons, other than body size, to the untrained eye, they are just bigger or smaller, but pretty much look like the same animal.
Can anyone deny that some (not all) of these easterns look wolf-like? I remember a pile of pics from the O'Gorman catalogs from a guy snaring coyotes in Maine.....they all looked like wolves.
Ignoring the color phase issue, as you have asked, really gets away from the heart of the issue. With Algonquin Wolves and Red Wolves being mostly red in color, it just seems to make sense that the bulk of the red coyotes are here on the east coast......even down to Alabama, which is not far from the Red Wolve's original, indigenous territory of the Appalacian Mountains.
The bottom line, if it is known that ALL coyotes have wolf blood in them and that the fear is that we will have restrictions someday due to the wolf-blood, then ALL of us have something to worry about, not just those of us with wolf-like looking coyotes.
Marty Senneker and his silver, 28# coyotes is in as much jeopardy as those of us with 65# red ones based on that theory.
Zagman
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Post by z on Jul 6, 2005 10:08:36 GMT -6
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Post by MChewk on Jul 6, 2005 10:21:13 GMT -6
Come on Z wake up...lol Another question...since we are talking about "mixing gene pools" at what point are we technically trapping "threatened species" and possibly breaking the law? I would love for some dna/gene testing to take place on some of the wolves to see what type of /if any coyote dna is present...would be interesting.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 6, 2005 10:22:50 GMT -6
the deciding factor. zag, if you killed a 65# "coyote" in wyoming, the feds would arrest you. That is about the last word.
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Post by Zagman on Jul 6, 2005 10:37:58 GMT -6
The three S's.....Shoot Shovel and Shut-up.....
MZ
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Post by Dusty on Jul 6, 2005 11:03:21 GMT -6
Every publication by Chambers I could find concerning coyote genetics lists Wilson as first author! The include the type description for C. lycaon, which hasn't been recognized by the taxonomic community. The abstract is at the end of this message. They continually cite DNA evidence, but don't submit sequences, at least not that I can find. Never heard of the guy before, so I'll reserve judgement, but I'd examine him VERY closely before I allied myself - and my future - behind him based solely on the company he keeps. I've never seen a real publication (other than Wilson's) citing C. lycaon. There are no sequences on GenBank. My (uninformed) conclusion is, it's a figment of PW's imagination. Coyotes from the Rocky Mountains are nearly as large as those from New York, but exhibit no hybridization with wolves.That's a Chambers quote - anyone ever see a big rocky mountain coyote? Bob? Comments?? The distinction between species and subspecies is artificial and arbitrary; we, as scientists, just pull it out of our ass! They can't tell; if it's clear that they can, it's a specific (ie, species) break (much of the reason C. lycaon has been ignored by most of the scientific community). I, for one, don't really know what these NE canids are - C. latrans, C. lupus, C. lycaon, C. rufus, C. lupus domesticus, or some hybrid of any or all the above, and I'm not trying to 'argue for' any of them (what I think doesn't change what the are anyway!). What I am suggesting is, there's something missing from the theory that these things are hybrids between things that don't seem to exist! This isn't unique to the NE. A large part of the scientific community thinks red wolves are, at best, a stable hybrid (interestingly enough, botanists have long recognized stable hybrids - they even have a formal taxonomy for them). Colors do not make a species - there are 4 distinct colors, and innumerable intergrades, in black bears. Foxes are another good example. We all know the management consequences of these things being officially deemed "wolf," notwithstanding what the critter might actually be. (For some of us, it means more liberal coyote seasons!) There are 19 - more or less - recognized coyote subspecies. I'm certainly not the one who'd call research "facts"! Research is just that. Publications are the results of research, and are published in peer-reviewed journals precisely because they may be wrong and the community deserves a chance to revise them by subsequent publication. If someone tells you they are privy to a "scientific fact" run - don't walk - and get your hip boots. Science is the method to DISprove hypotheses; it can't prove anything. I was serious when, earlier, I offered to archive skulls and/or tissues in a large public university museum. The offer stands. Such resources are the only way problems such as this will ever be solved. The museum currently holds over 3500 wolves and around 150 coyotes; we have quite the comparative collection. pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/rp/rp2_abst_f?cjz_z00-158_78_ns_nf_cjzPaul J. Wilson, Sonya Grewal, Ian D. Lawford, Jennifer N.M. Heal, Angela G. Granacki, David Pennock, John B. Theberge, Mary T. Theberge, Dennis R. Voigt, Will Waddell, Robert E. Chambers, Paul C. Paquet, Gloria Goulet, Dean Cluff, and Bradley N. White Can. J. Zool./Rev. Can. Zool. 78(12): 2156-2166 (2000) Full text (PDF 365 kb) Abstract: The origin and taxonomy of the red wolf (Canis rufus) have been the subject of considerable debate and it has been suggested that this taxon was recently formed as a result of hybridization between the coyote and gray wolf. Like the red wolf, the eastern Canadian wolf has been characterized as a small "deer-eating" wolf that hybridizes with coyotes (Canis latrans). While studying the population of eastern Canadian wolves in Algonquin Provincial Park we recognized similarities to the red wolf, based on DNA profiles at 8 microsatellite loci. We examined whether this relationship was due to similar levels of introgressed coyote genetic material by comparing the microsatellite alleles with those of other North American populations of wolves and coyotes. These analyses indicated that it was not coyote genetic material which led to the close genetic affinity between red wolves and eastern Canadian wolves. We then examined the control region of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and confirmed the presence of coyote sequences in both. However, we also found sequences in both that diverged by 150 000 - 300 000 years from sequences found in coyotes. None of the red wolves or eastern Canadian wolf samples from the 1960s contained gray wolf (Canis lupus) mtDNA sequences. The data are not consistent with the hypothesis that the eastern Canadian wolf is a subspecies of gray wolf as it is presently designated. We suggest that both the red wolf and the eastern Canadian wolf evolved in North America sharing a common lineage with the coyote until 150 000 - 300 000 years ago. We propose that it retain its original species designation, Canis lycaon. www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dpae/cons/coyote.PDF:
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