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Post by trappnman on Nov 18, 2014 8:36:38 GMT -6
a good article in Wiki- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipelinedon't know how accurate, but it seems to be so, and sources are quoted so I'l ltake it as such until its disproven- some quotes- Landowners in the path of the pipeline have complained about threats by TransCanada to confiscate private land and lawsuits to allow the "pipeline on their property even though the controversial project has yet to receive federal approval."[94] As of October 17, 2011, TransCanada had "34 eminent domain actions against landowners in Texas" and "22 in South Dakota." Some of those landowners gave testimony for a House Energy and Commerce Committee hearing in May 2011.[94] In his book The Pipeline and the Paradigm, Samuel Avery quotes landowner David Daniel in Texas, who claims that TransCanada illegally seized his land via eminent domain by claiming to be a public utility rather than a private firm.[95]if you read the part under Economic Issues, at the very least it's not as cut and dried as some make it out to be
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Post by bblwi on Nov 18, 2014 8:44:48 GMT -6
Good to know that there are more in AK on that line but that is a 30 year old pipeline if not more so it would be interesting to see how much technology has changed in a generation. I am actually in favor of this lets see just how much economic boom we get from these major changes to the landscape. Instead of always stewing in this with the environmental aspects versus these almighty high paying jobs lets find out. After all as many have said it is not my land being lost or gored either. The profits will stay in North America but not the USA, we are just the resource provider of a commodity delivery system and that means the top shelf money goes somewhere else. I have been an expert witness and a consultant with my past training in how much damage trenching into our type soils have caused farmers in lost production and over many years. The soil types there may be different and or the yield potential and expectations may be far lower. If I were a land owner in NE or SD etc. I sure would have wanted this to go through when corn was $7 a bushel instead of $3.75.
Bryce
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Post by bobbrennan1 on Nov 18, 2014 9:06:14 GMT -6
It may or may not be a nice income for the land owner. When the wind mills came to my area I didn't want them at any price! Others tried to bs me with it's for the good of the country so I understand not wanting the pipeline but the way things are now you are screwd get over it it's going to happen if politicians want it to it can be debated all they want it's not in your hand sits in the frauds in washingtons! All of them!
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Post by PamIsMe on Nov 18, 2014 17:26:19 GMT -6
"The weather not a big factor Pam? LOL"
TC Have you ever been to AK in January? I have, my grandson was born in January. The actual temp was -52 for 2 days and then it warmed up to -50 then -35 for another week. It got twilight around 10:30am and was pitch black again by 2:45. Do you really think that compares to the weather in the Dakotas? Not to mention permafrost isn't a problem in the Dakotas nor remote uninhabited mountainous locations. The AK pipeline is checked mainly by airplane/helicopter and maintained with "pigs" running inside of it.
Place Northern Alaska - Ave January Temp:
High Low F High Low C -7 -20 Barrow -22 -29 -2 -18 Bettles -19 -28 4 -10 Kotzebue -16 -23 13 -3 Nome -11 -19 -10 -22 Prudhoe Bay -24 -30
Does that really compare to Western North Dakota
January temperatures: daily averages
High Low F High Low C 27 3 Dickinson -3 -16 20 0 Kenmare -7 -18 29 3 Medora -2 -16 18 -3 Powers Lake -8 -19 27 6 Pretty Rock Wildlife Refuge -3 -14 22 0 Williston -6 -18
With the Repubs in charge no doubt Keystone will get built eventually. We'll just have to wait and see how many permanent jobs it creates.
Cheers Pam
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Post by PamIsMe on Nov 18, 2014 17:27:24 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Nov 18, 2014 18:17:00 GMT -6
"But why would anyone not want the Keystone pipeline on their property? I mean TransCanada offered Crawford a whopping $7,000 to help complete its $10,000,000,000 project (OEN). Surely that was fair.
Maybe Crawford declined because there have been over 6,300 pipeline incidents since 2002. 154 people have died, 540 people have been injured and $4.7 billion in property damage has resulted (Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration; Cornell University). The potential economic damage caused by the expected spills from the Keystone pipeline alone could outweigh the benefits of any jobs created by the project. "
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Post by bblwi on Nov 18, 2014 18:24:08 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 18, 2014 20:41:24 GMT -6
Tman not against affordable health care but that is not what the health care act does for the majority now does it? Cost are still increasing mine has gone up since the inception of such and will continue to do so as it is done by private companies that need to make a profit! the amount we we could debate that all day long! I am for affordable healthcare for the majority not 3 million people. Mostly who are lower middle class and many frankly already covered, I agree some who were not. yet let's get back to the pipeline, this is far more than just about the pipeline being built and maintained it is about many others jobs created because of such and the taxes that states will reap from such activity from the pipeline going where it does. I have already explained in the past my old town and the school would reap well over 300,000 annually in a small western town. Due to taxes and fees. That is just one small area across the length of the pipeline, In the area around Faith they where talking building a small village for the workers due to lack of motels in the area and that it could be estimated around 300-400 people being there for a period of time. You also look at other jobs created and the larger tax revenue from the oil and building of such pipeline, anything would help with unemployment where it is at, we all want cheaper oil but no one wants it to come from there back yard . It has to come from somewhere or we can keep buying more of it from other countries. This pipeline is well past due in this country. You have many for it and some against it, I know a few ranchers that wanted it as it meant revenue for them and the school district which they where big backers of. I was around Faith,SD when all of this was going down and sat on the city council. The Bakker formation has brought in a pile of money to ND as a state in taxation next years estimate is 4.6 billion in tax revenue, for a state with less than 740,000 people that is a nice hunk of money to fund schools,roads, conservation and other things. MT,SD,NE etc could all use any and all taxation received from the XL pipeline as the fed govt mandates more things without funding them.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 18, 2014 20:46:20 GMT -6
COULD outweigh, no pipeline is guaranteed fail safe! look what happened out in the ocean but BO continues to pump oil and that helps us, the more supply in the entire pipeline the better............. Don't care who is buying and who is selling.......... More product means lower prices.
The option then is let other counties supply us the majority of our oil and be that their mercy or start taking care of ourselves.
Everyone who drives on any interstates Has ID to thank as private lands where taken and paid for at what ever rate to make such roads happen. state HWY's etc........
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Post by bblwi on Nov 18, 2014 23:06:01 GMT -6
There are a lot of state public officials really concerned about how to charge hybrid car users or electric auto users fees to help build and keep up roads and bridges. with more non fossil fuel being used and better mpg there are all sorts of concerns regarding roads, not unlike concerns and issues for SS, Medicare etc. I guess it is some people's job to worry while other work to solve issues. WI is not a leader in hybrid autos but in 4 years we have gone from 4k to nearly 50K of hybrid autos so the march is going on.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Nov 19, 2014 0:01:40 GMT -6
Well, the Senate voted NO, so it's probably dead until after January. I imagine it will again be the first thing they vote on.
Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 19, 2014 5:46:24 GMT -6
Bryce hybrids are an answer for some but not many, 3,000 grand for a new battery after 6 years or so of use? Figure that out versus fuel and see what savings there is ? hybrids are a choice , I looked at some myself until I found out that not only do I buy a new car in 6 years it would cost me 3,100 for a new battery cell and that is not counting normal wear and tear in a vehicle. Until they can get more life from a cell or make them far cheaper hybrids will remain a niche market deal. The claycomo ford plant is going gang busters on F 150 and Van production in fact Ford just added hundreds of more jobs in claycomo, mo. All these burn fuel and many of fords trucks don't get great mileage in fact their engine in the f 250 gets around 6.3-7 mph in town and 10 on the hwy. Another vehicle I would never buy is something getting 7/10 mph. So these vehicles offset the hybrid deal
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Post by bblwi on Nov 19, 2014 16:35:08 GMT -6
I have three friends with hybrids that ate 8 years old on the same batteries. They warrant for 6 or 7 that does not mean they won't last longer. Also if it is $500 per year even at $3.50 gas and you drive 20k per year and get 45 ,mpg instead of 25 mpg the battery is a heck of a deal. We won't stop the trend to get away from the internal combustion engine. It is 125 year old technology and we have considerable room for improvement and efficiencies. I know when the Prius came out they were about 25k and I doubt many thought they would get 45-52 MPG here in WI so they rapidly becoming more popular. With an ever increasing metro population and city driving mileage goes way, way up with the hybrids and that is where 200 plus million people live today with more most likely in the future.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Nov 19, 2014 17:37:26 GMT -6
The newest Chevy Volt gets 101 City - 93 Hwy, and if you use only regular gasoline (which you can do) it still gets 37 mpg combined city and highway driving. I could live with that :-)
Of the top 10 new hybrids, one of the Priuses is the lowest with mileage of MPG City 51 | Hwy 48. My friend has had a Prius for 7 or 8 years now, no new battery yet and she still loves it.
Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 19, 2014 20:07:50 GMT -6
The Toyota rep told me plan on 6 years avg for the battery. So that is what it based it on and over 3,000 is too much for me and of your a single person or you and a husband might be fine, not for snow conditions or for a family . I have a gas camery that gets 32 avg . Fine for me and what it is used for. Pam I am talking snow and cold and blizzard conditions I know from experience many times Nw SD and ND has been colder than that of southern half of AK. Bryce be along time coming where one can get the power needed for pulling or hauling or larger vehicles on a battery system. Ford still sells a pile of F150 pickups and try to find a diesel truck low mileage used and see what their prices are. One super hard to find and then price is up there. The new disease all have the urea tanks on them and many are forced to a smaller engine to be tier 4 compliant or spend a lot of money for carbon credits. look at the diesel mowers and bobcats as well. Bottom line this will be good for the economy and how big of an impact yet to be seen, but more in the system the better for us and anyone working inline with this pipeline or off shoot jobs to come from it.
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Post by bblwi on Nov 19, 2014 22:14:39 GMT -6
Lot of canister delivery vehicles in New York City last month so there are ways and as I mention with the masses moving to the metro areas things are changing quickly and for millions. We seem to forget that 80% of our people live in about 12% of the landscape so those of us that live in rural areas get a false view of what our society is changing toward. Similar trends in housing. Owning your own home was stated to be the American dream and a way of massing wealth. Well 2008-2009 shattered that dream for millions and now many are renting and want to for longer periods of time or forever. There are now rental shortages for families in many areas with houses not being sold as rapidly as one would think. The bankers now ridiculous credit limitations after their overly liberal period is causing many to not want to deal with lenders either.
Bryce
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Nov 19, 2014 22:28:39 GMT -6
Fees and taxes generated by a pipeline?
Pumping station every 40 miles or so.
We have an Enbridge pumping station 2 miles from my house. Do you know what that does for the taxes in our school district? Building a new one across the road from it this winter. That one is going to be in city limits, do you know what that is going to do for our school district and city coffers.
Enbridge paid 34 million in RE taxes in MN alone. Mn alone! How many jobs do you suppose that is at the government level alone?
The Re taxes paid by the new Keystone line alone will fund more than 50 government jobs alone.
Any idea how much electricity those stations will use? Its alot. I suppose that the money paid to the utility company doesnt support jobs
1500 miles of lines and someone has to locate those lines for construction purposes, when you cross one of those lines doing construction somone will be on site to make sure you dont hit it. 1500 miles of line! How many people will it take just to do that? There will be repairs, there will be routine maintenance, there will be flyovers, there will be valves that require yearly mainenance etc. How the heck do you do that with 50 people.
How about the refineries that it will supply dont those jobs count. Or if some or all of the oil gets shipped wont it require people to load those ships? Tugs?
Enbridge employs more than 50 people alone in MN and that is not counting the outside contractors they hire.
So yes I do contend it will create more than 50 full time jobs.
Since we are throwing out silly figures here is one from the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank.
"In 2007, $1 billion in federal highway expenditures supported about 30,000 jobs—10,300 in construction, 4,675 in supporting industries, and 15,094 in induced employment."
So a billion dollars in federal highway speding will create 10,300 construction jobs but a 10 billion dollar expenditure on a pipeline will only create 3000 construction jobs during the life of the expenditure? Or a billion in highway spending will support 20,000 jobs besides the construction industry but a ten times expenditure by a private company will only support 40,000 jobs outside of the construction jobs?
Silly.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Nov 19, 2014 22:45:43 GMT -6
Transcanada says they have spent an average of 900 million a year on pipeline integrtiy and maintence the last three years.
Lets say they spend a hundred million a year in the US. So if a billion dollars of highway expenditures will support 30,000 jobs, could we extrapolate that a 100 million pipeline expenditure will will support 3,000 jobs? Too many, how about 2,000 jobs, maybe a thousand?
One thing is for sure is it will be one hell of a lot more than the 50 that the libs are touting.
Now what can we extrapolate of half that 900 million was spent in the US? Now how many jobs?
I
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 20, 2014 19:41:03 GMT -6
Steven the nay Sayers will use anything they can to keep in lock step on issues such as these. Like only 50 jobs and no money to be made etc,etc. Wd all know it will be far more than 50 jobs, we all know money will be made. Pheasant hunting brings in a ton of money and birds are not oil . The birds start the money machine going just like a pipeline can and will do.
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Post by bblwi on Nov 24, 2014 11:54:56 GMT -6
This pipeline may well bring on some jobs, probably far more than the antis suggest and far fewer than the pipeline advocates are hyping. The real infrastructure work needs to be in the millions of miles of roads and thousands of bridges etc. that need a lot of work. There would hundreds of thousands of jobs all over the USA with a commitment to get this done. Also we won't need a pipeline soon if our transportation infrastructure won't support the cars and trains and trucks. We won't need the oil or the gas the pipeline delivers. Again a lot of political BS that allows the real issues to just decay more and more and create the negative feelings about supporting any need to raise taxes and build the infrastructure that is needed. It is a funny that in the 1950s our mostly conservative society and culture supported huge funding of infrastructure because we felt that improving our total community was in our best interests. Today we have a conservative bent that believes strongly in hoarding what I have and the rest be damned. We have used the fear of community and government to instill a sense of hoarding our wealth and income from others even if I don't use it. I just don't want anyone else to benefit from what I have come to feel is totally mine.
Bryce
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