Army To Replace 9mm Pistol With More Reliable Gun

[FWS]

Army to replace 9mm pistol with more reliable gun packing better 'knock down’ power

By Joseph Weber
FoxNews.com
July 12, 2014



The Army wants to retire its supply of 9mm handguns and replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

Army officials say their inventory of more than 200,000 semi-automatic Beretta M9 and Sig Sauer M11 pistols has become outdated, worn out and needs to be replaced with an updated model that also offers more reliability and durability.

They also are considering new ammunition, which has sparked considerable debate among military and civilian weapons experts, too.

“Advancements in firearms have taken place since the M9 was adopted nearly 30 years ago, and it is our intent to take advantage of these advancements,” a military spokesperson told FoxNews.com on Friday. “The Army is seeking to replace the M9 and M11 pistols with a handgun that is more accurate, ergonomic, reliable and durable than the current pistol.”

Officials seem opposed to an update version of the Beretta M9, despite the company offering to make changes.

"We have submitted numerous changes or product improvements that really address a lot of the shortcomings that are either perceived or real," Beretta development manager Gabe Bailey recently told Military.com.

The Army has been considering a change for several years and on July 29 will hold a so-called “industry day” to brief gun manufacturers about the competition requirements for a winning proposal.

The Defense Department will reportedly buy more than 400,000 new pistols if and when officials agree on a new model.

Beyond the 9mm’s durability issues, which Army officials says are costing them too much in repairs, soldiers also say the pistol needs a more ergonomic grip, its safety device too often locks inadvertently and its open-slide bullet chamber allows in too much dirty, which results in jamming.

Still, the other big issue appears to be about the caliber of the new ammunition, considering most experts argue a person must be hit with several 9 mm rounds to be killed.

“We are not dictating a caliber during the competition,” the spokesperson said. “A vendor may submit multiple calibers of ammunition. However, the ammunition must exceed the performance of the current M882 9mm round.”

Among those likely to be considered in the Modular Handgun System competition are the .40 and .45 caliber rounds.

The argument against the .40 caliber round is that its heavier weight and stronger recoil causes excessive wear on a 9 mm pistol.

There have been no reports on how much the new weapons will cost, amid budget concerns. However, in September 2012, Beretta received a 5-year, $64 million firm-fixed-price contract for up to 100,000 of its M9 9mm pistols, according to Defense Industry Daily.

Following industry day, the Army will release a draft Request for Proposal, which seeks input from manufacturers.

The Army will then consider the manufacturers’ comments and modify the request, if necessary. It will then hold a final industry day before issuing a final proposal before the end of the year.

The next phase will essentially be a tryout and elimination process, which officials say will be based on technical results and will rely “heavily” on soldier feedback.

“One of the primary requirements for this weapon system is to provide the soldier with increased terminal performance,” the spokesperson said. “Feedback from soldiers in the field is that they want increased ‘knock-down power.’ And the MHS program will evaluate commercially available weapons that meet that requirement.”

[FWS]

John Moses Browning gave em' the solution 100 years ago and the 1911 45 ACP proved itself through use since then and has only improved with age,

[trappincoyotes39]

The sig sauer 226 is available in 9mm and 40.a similar version the 220 in a 45, Sigs they are known for long duration and very,very few failures. They are an excellent handgun and with Modern bullet technology a 9mm is capable of taking out an offender with little problems. The sig 226 is a very accurate Pistol, do not know their motive but their reason for dropping such a gun make little sense.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I can't remember whether it was in Ed Sceery's book or if he told me this at a convention in Colorado but regarding the claim that bullets deflected when shot through brush. He said you want to go stand behind that bush and let me shoot at you?

I think same with 9mm. I'd probably choose a 9mm over a .45 ACP if I was choosin, but I'd choose neither first.

[James]

Jul 12, 2014 18:55:23 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

The sig sauer 226 is available in 9mm and 40.a similar version the 220 in a 45, Sigs they are known for long duration and very,very few failures. They are an excellent handgun and with Modern bullet technology a 9mm is capable of taking out an offender with little problems. The sig 226 is a very accurate Pistol, do not know their motive but their reason for dropping such a gun make little sense.

The P226 is a great handgun in .40 S&W. I have an X5, which is essentially a souped-up 226. Very accurate and reliable.

Jim

[trappincoyotes39]

Yep Jim many of those go 20,000 rounds and switch out a barrel takes 1 min, recoil spring and a new slide all done quick and easy and keep the trigger group well maintained and you have as pistol that will last a long time.

Notice how much hand work is done here. Proud Americans making a living.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTYEdbHhOM

[FWS]

The M11 is the Sig Sauer, one of the pistols they're looking to replace with something more accurate, reliable, and with more energy.

[trappincoyotes39]

The m11 a1 is a fine firearms no issues with it, it is meant as a smaller conceal carry type gun for officers and as a back up weapon not a main duty weapon due to its size and sight radius. There is no issues with these guns or the p226 the navy seals have been using for quite a few years and their preferred weapon over the beretta.

M11 A1


Sig Sauer has been a prime supplier of combat pistols to U.S. military units for decades and is now offering a commercial version of the 9mm M11. Designated the M11-A1, this pistol differs from the military model, sold exclusively to the government. The M11 is used by every U.S. service branch, including combat forces such as Navy aviators and military criminal investigation agencies, such as the NCIS and U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command. Built at Sig Sauer’s Exeter, New Hampshire, factory, the M11-A1 improves upon the German-made M11, which itself shares features with Sig’s P-series semi-autos. The original M11 features a slide made of welded carbon-steel pieces, an external extractor, a 13-round magazine and a standard trigger. The enhanced M11-A1 pistol has a one-piece stainless steel slide, a second-generation external extractor, phosphate-coated internal parts, a 15-round magazine and Sig’s Short Reset Trigger (SRT) among other features.

GUN DETAILS:

The M11-A1 is a mid-sized pistol with a full-sized grip that utilizes the familiar modified Browning, tilting-block, locked-breech design, which is present in all Sig Sauer P-series pistols that use a locked breech. But the M11-A1’s locking mechanism is much stronger than many. Its dimensions are the same as those used on the P229 and are larger than those used on the 9mm P226 or .45 ACP P220. The added strength lies in a significantly wider locking surface between the slide and the front of the chamber, and between the rear of the chamber and the breech. These wider locking surfaces were engineered into the P229 to accommodate the significantly increased chamber pressure of the .357 SIG cartridge. Consequently, the 9mm M11-A1 is overbuilt from a strength standpoint and can handle hotter 9mm loads.

The M11-A1 is a double-action/single-action (DA/SA) pistol with a “live hammer” decocker and no safety lever. “Live hammer” means that once decocked, the pistol can be fired in DA mode. “Dead hammer” decockers used on the Beretta 92FS and S&W 5906 decock the hammer and disconnect the hammer from the trigger. Dead-hammer decockers also act as manual safeties when applied. The M11-A1’s Nitron-finished slide is milled from a single stainless steel billet, and the hardcoat-anodized frame is made from an aluminum forging. Both the Nitron and hardcoat anodizing are durable, with the Nitron also being fairly slick. The only plastic parts you will find on the M11-A1 are the mainspring stop and the grips. The barrel features traditional rifling, which allows you to shoot inexpensive lead bullets—polygonal rifling does not.


Another review from a long time user

Even though many law enforcement agencies now carry the P226, P229, or P239 in .40 S&W and .357 SIG caliber, SIG Sauer pistols in 9mm still remain popular. Perhaps recognizing this, SIG produced the M11-A1, an upgraded version of the P228 (or M11 when carried by soldiers).

The M11-A1 is basically a P228 with a blackened stainless steel slide, Sig Lite night sights, phosphate coated internal parts, a set of Sig Lite night sights, a short reset trigger, and a blackened alloy frame. The M11-A1 is also shipped with three high-capacity 15-round Parkerized magazines.

The M11-A1 I tested proved to be an upgraded version of the original P228. While testing the M11-A1, I engaged a TQ19 police qualification target from various CQB distances and had absolutely no problem delivering accurate shot placement including head shots while using 147-grain or 124-grain Winchester or Federal ammunition including hollow-point service ammunition.

During my law enforcement career as a U.S. Customs agent, I carried a P228. Since I retired, I've put plenty of training and service ammunition through at least four different P228s and one M11 and have never experienced a stoppage or malfunction. One of the P228s that I currently carry once served as a Swiss police service pistol. Even though this pistol was made in the 1980s, it continues to function flawlessly.

I purchased the gun from a federally licensed firearm dealer, who added new slide pins, a factory spring upgrade kit, and a new pair of Sig Lite night sights. Despite its age, my used Swiss police pistol has continued to function just as reliably as any of the other P228s that I've field-tested. When SIG Sauer transitioned to manufacturing their slides with a one-piece block of stainless steel, the original P228 continued to be produced with a carbon steel slide.

After the U.S. Armed Forces adopted the 9mm Beretta M9 as the primary personal defense weapon for most military personnel, the Department of Defense selected the P228 as the compact personal defense weapon for selected personnel. This included general officers, military special agents, and naval aviators. With the exception of the finish, the M11 is basically a P228 with a carbon steel slide, a component firing mechanism, 13-round magazines, and an alloy frame. The M11 that I field-tested was another P228 variant that proved to be accurate and flawlessly reliable.

The P228 and now M11-A1 have been the most reliable compact pistols ever made. You should consider it, if you're in the market for a well-made compact 9mm pistol with a tremendous track record for reliable service.

[trappincoyotes39]

Don"t know what they are up to but accuracy and reliability are not issues with Sig Sauer pistols.

This sums it up on the account of quality of Sig firearms.


If you’re looking at purchasing a new pistol, the Sig Sauer P226 should definitely be on your short list. I, and many others, believe it to be one of the finest handguns on the market today. My professional opinion is based on more than 30 years of experience with a Sig Sauer P226, on the SEAL Teams as an operator and as a weapons and tactics Instructor. I have personally put more than 200,000 rounds through a few different Sig Sauer P226 pistols and I have never encountered a malfunction that wasn’t ammunition related. Sig Sauer weapons are very accurate, reliable, durable, and are a great value for the money.

Pros

DA / SA trigger system (Faster follow up shots)
Customizable trigger weight
Reversible magazine release
Metal frame (Better recoil management)
Hammer fired (Smoother trigger)
Beaver tail (Consistent Grip)
Short reset trigger option
De-horned at the factory
Cons:

Difficult to master two trigger pulls
Full size frame can be difficult to conceal
MRRP $850
Fit

First and foremost is the fit and size of the weapon in your hands. Because the Sig Sauer P226 is a large frame semi-automatic pistol with a double stack magazine it works extremely well for people with relatively large hands. Please read Buying a Gun if you do not understand how to properly fit a pistol to your hand. If your hands aren’t big enough to reach and manipulate the trigger system correctly, you should look at one of the smaller framed, single-stack equivalents like the Sig Sauer P239. Sig Sauer is known in the industry for building some of the most ergonomic pistols in the world. That said, if it doesn’t fit your hand, it’s a poor choice.

Function

The next discussion point is the actual function of the weapon. The Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA) trigger system is found on many Sig Sauer pistols and the P226 is no exception. The Sig Sauer P226 is designed for right handed shooters and has the take-down lever, magazine release, de-cocking lever, and slide stop all positioned on the left side of the weapon. Due to the number of buttons on the side of the gun, it is referred to as a “button gun” in some circles. The de-cocking lever allows the shooter to safely bring the hammer forward with a round in the chamber and carry the weapon in the holster de-cocked. The real purpose of this design is that it eliminates having to manipulate a safety catch on your first shot coming out of the holster, and decreased the trigger weight and travel on your follow up shots.

The downside of this type of system is a longer and harder trigger press on your first shot. Your first DA trigger press is approximately 7.5 pounds (out of the box) and the remaining SA trigger presses are approximately 3.5 pounds. For shooters coming from a 1911-type SA pistol background, the DA/SA trigger will take some getting used to. The long double action trigger pull can take time and effort to master. It can also make this a poor choice for new shooters who are trying to master a number of other skills. As with anything thing, it can be overcome with proper training. Sig Sauer does sell a short re-set trigger for all their DA/SA pistols which eliminates even more of the trigger movement for follow up shots.

They do sell a SRT trigger now .

The other design issue with the Sig Sauer P226 is the location of the slide stop is further towards the rear of the frame than on most other pistols. This positioning can result in a thumb ending up over the slide stop which can cause the slide lock not to function. Modifying your grip is the only means to compensate for this. Many shooters with long established habits, will have to dedicate significant time and energy to making this modification.

The Sig Sauer P226 is an aluminum alloy frame with an integral rail and stainless steel slide, both of which hold up extremely well in adverse conditions. You can order your Sig Sauer with a long list of options to include a hardened Nitron coating, night sights, and many grip and color options. The options for coating and modifying the external and internal parts of this gun are extensive. You can reduce the DA trigger weight to about 5.5 pounds, and SA to about 2.5 pounds while maintaining the functionality and reliability of the gun. Install a short reset trigger and an over travel stop and you can make your follow up shots feel very similar to a 1911 SA trigger. Lastly, this is a relatively heavy gun which will decrease felt recoil and muzzle rise.

The SEAL Teams and many other Federal and LE Agencies have been using Sig Sauer pistols for more than 25 years with great success, this being a testament to the engineering and materials that go into these German designed weapons.

Finances

The finance part of the equation can be just as important as the fit and function of your pistol. Sig Sauer handguns are more expensive than many of the polymer-framed weapons that have become very popular over the last decade. A new Sig Sauer P226 will generally cost $850 or more depending on the number of available options. While most Glocks, Springfield XDs, and Smith & Wesson M&Ps can be purchased for approximately $500 or less.

One way to overcome the initial ‘sticker shock’ of a brand new Sig-Sauer pistol is to look at purchasing a ‘pre-owned’ model. Many of these pistols are former law enforcement weapons sold in gun stores at much more affordable prices and most have some holster wear, but very little actual ‘mileage.’ I would proceed with caution in the used gun market, especially if this is your first or only gun. That said, I bought a used Sig Sauer P226 from a dealer in Shotgun News in 1997 for $400 and it still shoots great after 15 plus years of hard use on the range.

You can get a detailed view of the disassembly and maintenance of this Sig Sauer P226 on our maintenance video here.

This is my personal opinion and what I like or dislike is skewed based on my experiences. Do your own research! If you can, spend the money to go rent your future gun at a range and test fire it. I have carried this gun for most of my adult life and will continue to do so. That may have made me a bit biased!

Drive fast & take chances!

~ Chris White



SummaryReviewerChris WhiteReview Date2013-10-28Reviewed ItemSig Sauer P226Author Rating
Posted in: Rental Guns

[FWS]

Take it up with the Army, your argument is with their findings and their future needs.

replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

Army officials say their inventory of more than 200,000 semi-automatic Beretta M9 and Sig Sauer M11 pistols has become outdated, worn out and needs to be replaced with an updated model that also offers more reliability and durability.