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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 8, 2014 15:22:54 GMT -6
Tman that is what the royals fans try to hang their hats on too Except they have one World Series and the twins have 3 the red birds have never went more than 18 years between WS wins so you don't need to wait long before you see them win another WS . They have 19 NL pennants and 11 World Series wins that is better than 50 percent!
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Post by trappnman on Apr 8, 2014 18:24:10 GMT -6
yeah, but much of that there were only 3 teams.........
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 8, 2014 19:07:59 GMT -6
What do you mean 3 teams? That was out of all baseball to beat them all and win the WS 11 times. Also,since going to 5 in 1994 they have won the NL central 9 times. More than any other NL team in the central.
They have the most professional,org in MLB yes I am biased but many people around baseball players and fans alike will tell you the same. They do not need to pay super big salaries to people and they have some of the best office people in baseball. Some try to buy World Series when you look at their payroll year in and out they are very successful with middle of the pack payroll. They are 10-13th in payroll most years. A great farm system is what makes them work very well.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 8, 2014 21:06:30 GMT -6
you really want to talk payrolls and small markets?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 9, 2014 4:57:05 GMT -6
Well if you look at the minniapolis metro area it comes up to 7 counties in size and a population of 2.8 million people.
Look at St. Louis metro and you get a metro of the same size as your area Tman and St. Louis itself has a population do 318,416 and Minneapolis is at 392,880. So they are darn near exactly there same when looking at metro areas defined and the city themselves Minneapolis is a tad larger.
Kansas City is a larger city but St Louis has a larger metro by 200,000 people. So Kansas City is a larger town but the metro is smaller, how I don't know who sets the so called metro lines LOL.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 9, 2014 5:07:55 GMT -6
That is something I have always held against the royals it comes down to cheap ownership who,just wants to suck money from fans without giving them a good product for that money. The cardinals can be very successful in a small market because they will spend what is needed but does so in a smart way and they are open and honest with fans listen to the interviews with the people in charge of the cardinals, they get over 3.3 million per year to Busch stadium popularity is very,very high because of their business model and success. Then on the other side of the state you have an ownership that will not put a great product on the field all about the money, too secretive on decisions made and keep telling people wait until next year. The royals have always let great talent leave because of the price tag. yet keep telling the fan base wait until next year the royals have been a dismal team for 20 years or more and I applaud their fan base even though it has shrunk a lot, the diehards that's keep going even though the owner is all about pocketing cash wiith out putting a good product on the field. More years than not.
You look at the talent the royals had and left them go because of money. They have a decent ballpark and all but at some point you have to field a playoff team or change things in a big way.
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Post by bblwi on Apr 9, 2014 7:37:17 GMT -6
You guys debate small markets at 2.8 million and that puts places like Milwaukee and Pittsburgh like villages in comparison and they can compete at even lower salaries, but maybe not at the top level but for the salaries paid they have good quality.
Bryce
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Post by RdFx on Apr 9, 2014 8:08:04 GMT -6
Ditto on what Bryce said!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 9, 2014 19:42:29 GMT -6
Bryce the pirates will have to think about their payroll in the next few years and will decide of they stay competitive or fall back to their 20 year funk. You have to remember when the pirates sucked they also had very low payroll and the owner of the pirates made more money than most any other team overall in percent on investments. It was good for him and bad for the fans hence the half empty or more stadium. I hate that the TV money is revenue shared but I also know why they do it. I think it should also be based off a salary floor where no team can go below X amount of dollars like football now has. It will at least make them try to put out a better product. They can all afford a salary floor IMO. The brewers like some others do have a few seasons of being relative but over all they have no WS no NL pennants and only won one NL central title. That title is the year the cardinals last won the WS 2011
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Post by bblwi on Apr 9, 2014 21:09:07 GMT -6
I Was not talking quality I was relating market size but now that we brought up all the what ifs, I like how the Brewers are starting out this year. We don't have the history that the Cardinals have but the Brewers have not ben NL for that long either. The Braves that were in Boston, then Milwaukee and now Atlanta have always had a good farm system and very competitive teams. If one a team is going to compete in the free agent market for players one is not going to worry about the bottom floor of the payroll. There are always teams that develop good players and then let them go for big dollars and they are actually doing a good service to the league by doing so. That is one reason I like attending triple A minors as you see some really good young talent before the "show" and one can readily see their skills and how much better they are than most of the others. We got to see A Rod a few times in Appleton before he was called up and one could just see the talent he had. Too bad he chose the route he did.
The Brewers held a ceremony honoring Bob Ucker for 42 years of announcing the Brewers. It was a good show to watch with Bob Costas working as emcee. They introduced Hank Aaron as the "true" home run king and the place as one could expect the place erupted. The treatment and negative actions against Aaron at the time make the booing that Bonds and others get or got look like Sunday School picnic stuff. It does show that in the USA cheaters and cheating is more acceptable than being the wrong color at the wrong time trying to change the all American game.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2014 4:48:54 GMT -6
Yes brewers doing well so far this season Braun is on a good streak for sure, but seeing some talent in double A or triple A doesn't always lead to success. A team also needs some veteran presence to help young guys put as well. Many good teams have a great farm system and evaluating talent is the key as if you play it right you know who to hold and who to fold on. The cardinals have some great young pitching it all came from within draft pics, foriegn deals and such but they also have some good people working behind the scenes making some good choices.
Ucker is a funny guy and down to earth. Mike shannon for the cardinals has been the radio voice along with the great jack buck since 1971 born and raised in St Louis between minor leagues, playing career and broadcasting shannon has 55 years in with the cardinals that as well as ucker is an amazing tenure for sure. love listening to him on KMOX radio a very funny guy in his own right.
A floor would keep all teams honest again we are talking billionaires here and some don't really care about being competitive in the post season they care about profits, they will come if one can put a good product on the field, yet Becuase they way profit sharing is done many have found a way to make money and for periods of time say screw the fans. The Houston Astros are the pirates of 6-10 years ago. The entire team is playing on 21 million in yearly salary. You think that can be competitive? NO way but with TV contracts and such he will make a great profit with a poor product. A floor of say 40 million would still keep him at the bottom but at least the die hards has might get to see some better talent. Too much room there they are the lowest payroll in baseball now you move up just 3 spots to 27th the A's have 40 million more in payroll. keep things closer with a floor not so night and day different. A reason the NFL went with a floor.
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Post by bblwi on Apr 10, 2014 8:33:44 GMT -6
So you want to regulate capitalism? There are many ways to do so but it seems that there are many owners that don't want that to happen the way many would like it to. Some invest in pro teams for a write off and some actually hope to make some money. How they go about doing that is interesting. Without revenue sharing from the TV market there would not be as competitive teams as there are today. There probably are not enough billionaires willing to lose money buying smaller market teams without sharing the wealth a bit and that allows some less wealthy persons to own teams and maybe the re trying to make a buck and that is okay in this world as well. As to more mature players in the minors there typically are several near 30 year olds with experience that don't have the talent to go pro and that helps the younger guys considerably in preparing for the majors. Lot to learn in BB. You don't see many 18 year olds out of high school starting for the pros like you to in Basket ball.
Bryce
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2014 9:18:44 GMT -6
Bryce- you would have to include Madison as part of the Brewers base
we can debate small markets- but Twins were only team that almost got disbanded by the rest of the baseball owners, because of their small market
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Post by bblwi on Apr 10, 2014 14:35:19 GMT -6
Yes but Madison is 245,000 so that would still keep Milwaukee at about 1.7 million. We could throw in all of Ill above Chicago and get another 500,000K. We could then do the Green Bay, Fox Cities and get another 400,000 and wow we would be like the twin cities but just some would be 140 miles away. The metro area around Milwaukee is estimated to be about 1.4 million and that includes the 7 counties in the southeast portion of WI, maybe a couple more.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2014 17:47:00 GMT -6
A salary floor would not hurt any MLB team, the NFL has one for good reason now? Nothing wrong with a cost to get into the game.
let's not look at who has the smallest market, many teams can try harder to put a better product on the field . I am an avid hockey fan and they do ok even though a full barn is only 22,000 a night. They play half of what baseball plays in games and owners still making money and the league reporting better profits the last few years. if any hockey team in the US can make any baseball team should as well. The St. Louis blues spent 46 million on payroll this year and the cap,is 71 million.
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Post by bblwi on Apr 10, 2014 20:56:30 GMT -6
Now your telling me or us to quit the small market discussion when you brought it up in the first place.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 11, 2014 4:48:01 GMT -6
No not telling anyone to quit anything, I don't see it as an excuse for not living up to,potential or being able to win championships,as it has be done and clearly St Louis has done it on a more regular basis as They have a good business model in place and the people to make it all work and keep their rabid fan base happy.
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