USFWS petition for new Endangered Species

[trappnman]

I'm not that cynical I guess- probably because I see value in protecting species that need protecting- and to determine that, data is gathered. In Mn, or at least SE mn- grey fox & spotted skunks are very rare- something neither was a few decades ago.

[neotoxo]

Well the species seem to be healthy in Norhtern Ark.

We have a trapper there who has caught 5 Grays and 3 spotted skunks.

I have no real problem with protection...it is the expansion into non-threatened species in order to protect the few that bothers me...

Gubberment always seems to swing to dang far in either direction once it starts moving...

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman go further south in NE Iowa I know of a few guy's that still catch their fair share of them. Also here in MO from what I have caught they seem to be doing ok. The point that bothers me the MOST is the bogus term Prairie Grey Fox! I suspect they did this to try and reinforce more on this issue than just the "common" grey verbage. A back door way to do things in my mind.

The grey has good numbers in certain areas of the US so why not have the states decide and allow them to close the season on harvest? Why do WE need the federal govt involvded in a species that doesn't need protection nationwide?

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

So what can the government do even if they are compromised?
Waste a bunch of money and cause grief to those that live in that area?

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Better protect Armadillos in Nevada, I haven't seen one in Damn near 40 years.

[trappnman]

some of the above comments would have more validity, except I read the same ones on everything-

how trappers can be so anti envirnment and the out of doors is beyond my ken, thats for sure

[Jarhead620]

Steve,
I agree with you that the contempt that many trappers show for all environmental programs is disappointing, short sighted and usually based on ignorance.

However, to point out that the subject petitions are frivolous calculations made to support an anti-use agenda is an entirely accurate assessment. They are based on creative taxonomic classification. Worse, the actual listing of these peripheral populations of wide ranging species would do absolutely nothing in regard to improving their status.

Larry

[trappnman]

I will agree with your assessment

but let me ask you this- take spotted skunks- would not data, help identify WHY they are all but vanished in many areas of the country? one can say habitat, and let it go at that and that might be all it is- but the habitat is for the most part here, unchanged in my lifetime.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Not anti environment.....anti government BS.

[Jarhead620]

Steve,
I'll concede that you have a valid point regarding the spotted skunk. They have declined significantly in portions of their range. The cause of this decline could be habitat fragmentation, pesticides affecting them directly or reducing their food supply, raptors or other predators, disease, a combination of the above or something entirely different. If it would be possible to identify the causative factor(s) you would then be faced with the question of what can you really do about it throughout their supposed range. Again I don't accept that the petition is dealing with a legitimate sup-species, nor do I believe this population meets the criteria for a Distinct Vertebrate Population Segment.

I further concede that my concerns do not absolutely preclude the Service from making a finding to support a listing.

Larry

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

What could, or should, be done about any of the things you mention Larry?

Somehow I doubt the service is gonna start shooting raptors to save skunks.

[thorsmightyhammer]

I'd be very afraid if they put the grey fox and spotted skunk on the list.

We'd be using live traps before you know it.

Like joel said its not anti environmentalism its anti common sense.

For the effs sake if I am trapping along the canadian border and kill a lynx its a big deal and if that dumb animal goes across an imaginary line he's fair game.

Doesnt anybody see something wrong with that scenario?

[trappnman]

good point- except the repsonse is 100% the same from 99% of the trappers out there on any issue like this.

used to be trappers were woodsman that enjoyed the woods, and all that was in it- not so much anymore

[Jarhead620]

Joel,
Due to political and economic realities I don't believe that much would or could be done over the extensive range of the skunk unless it was made a part of a comprehensive wildlife management program involving several listed and non-listed species. Ideally a resident furbearer should be managed by the range States, but given the budget considerations the spotted skunk will not be seen as a priority.

Larry

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

How could you manage skunks?

[Jarhead620]

Population monitoring by capture/recapture studies (Lincoln Index), harvest season length, limits, or closures, habitat protection, food habit analysis, pesticide analysis of skunks and their prey species, etc. Notice that I left out listing under the ESA.

You know, all the standard stuff that keep biologists employed, LOL.

Larry

[FWS]

a lynx

Recall that the USF&WS had determined that the lynx did not warrant a listing in the Lower 48, but was ordered to list them by the court.

So in this situation with gray fox and spotted skunks in the range in question they are data deficient and need to do the status review, since the decision to not list will obviously end up in court.

So they need to do the scientific review. Which should be very interesting, I'd bet the gray foxes colonized most of those areas in the Northern Plains as a result of human activity in the last 200 years or so. Lot of landscape changes occurred over that time, with some creating corridors and habitat alterations that allowed for the expansion of species like gray fox and spotted skunk. And subsequent landscape changes that isolated some populations.

Like this explanation of spotted skunks by the MN DNR,


Species Profile: Eastern Spotted Skunk

Basis for Listing

The eastern spotted skunk, also known as the civet cat, reaches its northernmost limit in the northcentral United States. Regional records for the eastern spotted skunk suggest that this species extended its range northward into Minnesota in the early 1900s. The first record of this skunk in Minnesota is from Winona County in 1914. The increasing number of small farms in the early 1900s may have been a factor in facilitating the range expansion of this skunk. As a result, the eastern spotted skunk was once numerous around farms, where it commonly made dens under houses or outbuildings and fed on stored crops, rodents attracted to grain stores, and small farm animals such as chickens and their eggs.

The reported trapping harvest in Minnesota peaked at 19,400 animals in 1946, when the eastern spotted skunk was regularly taken throughout all but the northeastern corner of the state. Since then, the population in Minnesota and throughout the species' range has declined sharply (Gompper and Hackett 2005), and by 1965 less than 1,000 eastern spotted skunks were taken in the state annually. Despite intensive efforts to locate them, a maximum of 6 eastern spotted skunks have been documented in the last 20 years in Minnesota. Reasons for the population decline are unclear, but the consolidation of farms, the modernization of farming practices, and the use of pesticides may have been contributing factors. Additionally, changes in grain handling practices and modifications of building and storage facilities to exclude skunks and rodents eliminated many den sites and reduced food sources for skunks. These relatively slow changes however, are unlikely to be the sole cause of this species' swift decline (Gompper and Hackett 2005). The eastern spotted skunk was originally assigned special concern status in Minnesota in 1984. However, intensive surveys documented only 4 animals from 1990-1992, suggesting that only a few small, isolated populations remained in Minnesota. As a result, the eastern spotted skunk was reclassified as threatened in 1996.

There's a lot more to look at here than what I'm seeing discussed on this thread.

[trappincoyotes39]

The grey fox hasn't been a part of the plains that is the point! No where will you find the range of the Grey fox the plains being listed as such. The bogus sub species the prairie grey fox is nothing more than a loose term used to make this discussion in the first place.

They are a woodland, brush, mixed farm lands species not meant to survive out on the prairie. The land changes in the Northern Plains have been very little in many areas you have 100+ year old ranches that the biggest change is the fences put in. The grey fox would never do well in the plains not close to what they need to survive. Would be like the sub species the prairie possum LOL. Once seen crossing a 2 track back in 1897 by a sheep outfit heading to sell off lambs one fall.................

[FWS]

The grey fox hasn't been a part of the plains that is the point!

Actually it's just your anecdotal point at this stage, I'm not saying you're wrong, but.............. That needs to be quantified with scientific data for this purpose.

And your statement is overly broad, given the extent of the area in question, and contradictory, given that you have previously identified populations of gray fox that occur within the region.

They are a woodland, brush, mixed farm lands species not meant to survive out on the prairie.

And yet we find grays in other habitat types here, some of it pretty barren. They're really pretty adaptable.

[trappincoyotes39]

The greys in SD are limited to the SE portion of the state which is far from prairie as it goes. It is more farm lands and woodlands, brush thickets more like NW Iowa than the plain's of western SD. There is a reason SD is divided into two regions East river and west river and for the most part the habitat is different for much of the 1/3rd eastern portion of the state. SD is a diverse state for sure, but the little grey is not a plains species.

Because you see a "few" in some areas doesn't mean that is suitable habitat and you have breeding populations and stead fast home range either. Everyone thinks MT Lions are setting up shop in their back yard because of a sighting or two or three, doesn't mean a breeding population exsist in these areas either.

I have seen and caught a few swift fox in areas they normally wouldn't be doesn't make them a sustainable population in these areas either.

My beef is with the term used and the fact they will take "common" grey information as well, that should tell everyone the "prairie grey fox" as a species is more myth than fact.