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Post by neotoxo on Dec 10, 2012 23:33:05 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2012 6:03:23 GMT -6
The praire gray fox? LOL. A sub species meaning what? There are gray fox in many areas where they thrive and do well and where the habitat suits them far better than the open praire.
The plains spotted skunk has seen an increase in many areas of Eastern SD over the past 10 years.
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Post by Jarhead620 on Dec 11, 2012 8:26:16 GMT -6
To begin with the taxonomy is highly suspect. In my opinion it is nothing more than a splitter's fanciful departure from reality (for all three "entities"). Beyond that they fail to meet other listing criteria that will become obvious in the review. Surely reason will prevail and a not warranted finding will be the final result.
BTW, I worked for 10 years in the USFWS's Office of Endangered Species and four years in the Service's Division of Management Authority, plus 12 years in the Division of Refuges.
Larry
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Post by trappnman on Dec 11, 2012 8:37:26 GMT -6
lets be fair here-
first of all, the cototntail subspecies was rejected as an entity under this act
and secondly, all this is is asking for information, to be collected over the next 12 months, to determine status.
Larry- how is the spotted skunk, not a species and a subspecies?
40 years ago, they were as common as striped skunks here. I trapped for bounty, and it was 50/50 on what skunk would be there in the morning. We called them "civit cats" and that made them a little more fanciful, and I always thought they were a little more potent than a striper.
haven't seen one or trapped on for 30+ years, and thats taking a conservative 900+ striped skunks in that period
they are already listed as endangered in MN, and illegal to take. I see nothing wrong with expanding that listing to a larger area
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 11, 2012 9:26:20 GMT -6
What would be accomplished by listing it? Will they make a miraculous come back if they are listed?
Out West we get threatened with land closures on public land.
I'm guessing that you might get the Lynx treatment if the feds list them.
Just because you can't take them doesn't mean you won't kill them if they get in a coyote trap.
Be careful what ya wish for, the feds aren't your friends.
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Post by Jarhead620 on Dec 11, 2012 11:49:41 GMT -6
Of course all three entities are legitimate full species. What I question is the random application of sub-speciation based on minor color differences in the pelage and unsubstantiated geographical isolation.
It is true that the spotted skunk has declined in portions of it's range. The cause of this decline is almost entirely speculative. As Joel said, listing under the ESA will have little if any effect at all on it's potential for "recovery" beyond actions available to State Wildlife Agencies.
Gray fox have never been abundant in the prairies. This is just another case of the anti-use crowd attempting to gain some advantage by the listing of an abundant species on the periphery of it's historic range.
The Cottontail petition has been found to be not warranted so we need not discuss the obvious flaws in that portion of the document.
To contemplate carving out thousands of square miles of so-called Critical Habitat (CH) for the fox and the skunk is an action completely devoid of common sense and effectiveness. CH is a useless artifact of the ESA simply because it's effect is completely redundant to that provided by the listing itself.
Larry
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Post by FWS on Dec 11, 2012 13:17:27 GMT -6
90-Day Finding on 3 Grassland Thicket Mammals- Federal Register NoticePrairie Gray Fox, Plains Spotted Skunk May Warrant Protection Under the Endangered Species Act; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to Review Species’ StatusThe prairie gray fox and plains spotted skunk, two subspecies found in grasslands of some Midwestern and Great Plains states, may warrant federal protection as a threatened or endangered species, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced today, following an initial review of a petition seeking to protect the two species under the Endangered Species Act. The Service will undertake a more thorough status review of the species to determine whether to propose adding the species to the federal lists of endangered and threatened wildlife and plants. The Service found that information in the petition to list the Mearn’s eastern cottontail was not substantial. Today’s announcement, known as a 90-day finding, is based on scientific information about the species provided in the petition. The 90-day finding does not mean that the Service has decided it is appropriate to give the prairie gray fox and plains spotted skunk federal protection under the ESA. Rather, this finding triggers a more thorough status review of all the biological information available. Based on the status review, the Service will make one of three possible determinations: 1. Protection under the ESA is not warranted, in which case no further action will be taken. 2. Protection under the ESA as threatened or endangered is warranted. In this case, the Service will publish a proposal to list, solicit independent scientific peer review of the proposal, seek input from the public, and consider the input before a final decision about listing the species is made. In general, there is a one-year period between the time a species is proposed and the final decision. 3. Protection under the ESA is warranted but precluded by other, higher priority activities. This means the species is added to the federal list of candidate species, and the proposal to list is deferred while the Service works on listing proposals for other species that are at greater risk. A warranted but precluded finding requires subsequent annual reviews of the finding until such time as either a listing proposal is published, or a not warranted finding is made based on new information. The Endangered Species Act makes it illegal to kill, harm or otherwise "take" a listed species, or to possess, import, export or engage in interstate or international commerce of a listed species without authorization in the form of a permit from the Service. The Act also requires all federal agencies to minimize the impact of their activities on listed species, and directs the Service to work with federal agencies and other partners to develop and carry out recovery efforts for those species. Listing also focuses attention on the needs of the species, encouraging conservation efforts by other agencies (federal, state and local), conservation groups and other organizations and individuals. To ensure the status reviews of the plains spotted skunk and prairie gray fox are comprehensive, the Service is soliciting information from state and federal natural resource agencies and all interested parties regarding the animals and their habitat. You may submit information on the prairie gray fox and the plains spotted skunk, by one of the following methods: 1. Electronically: Go to the Federal eRulemaking Portal: www.regulations.gov. Search for Docket No. FWS–R3–ES–2012–0079, which is the docket number for this action. Then click on the Search button. You may submit a comment by clicking on “Comment Now!” 2. By hard copy: Submit by U.S. mail or hand-delivery to: Public Comments Processing, Attn: FWS–R3–ES–2012–0079; Division of Policy and Directives Management; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service; 4401 N. Fairfax Drive, MS 2042–PDM; Arlington, VA 22203. The deadline to submit comments electronically to the Federal eRulemaking Portal is February 4, 2012). After that date, comments must be mailed to the address above. We will not accept e-mail or faxes. For more information on the two subspecies and this finding, please visit www.fws.gov/midwest/endangered
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 11, 2012 13:20:23 GMT -6
My guess is that they will rule in favor of justifying their existence.
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Post by FWS on Dec 11, 2012 13:33:19 GMT -6
'Grassland thicket' is the relevant term here and is the real focus of these listing petitions, with gray fox, spotted skunk, and the cottontail just being the surrogates to enable protection of those areas.
If Turtle wants a masters and a PhD the thicket would be his ticket.
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Post by neotoxo on Dec 12, 2012 15:26:57 GMT -6
If Turtle wants a masters and a PhD the thicket would be his ticket. Who is "Turtle" ? Also, you post as if you have extensive knowledge of the processes involved to get a specie listed. Just wondering...
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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2012 8:09:19 GMT -6
Tuts been an active member here for many years
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2012 18:12:14 GMT -6
THis whole listing for grey fox is a bogus deal. They have NO common name for the "prairie" grey fox and they will take information about the grey fox in the prairie grey fox range to represent the petition sub species!!!!! Good grief grey fox are not a plains animal by any means and they explain the ideal habitat for such, because some guy in 1899 saw a grey fox out on the prairie he called it some prairie grey LOL. Your going to be hard pressed to list a species that doesn't survive or thrive in the area in which some want to classify them as a sub species.
Be like saying the "forest prairie dog" as a sub species for crying out loud. A guy in 1891 saw a prairie dog traveling through a forest once don't ya know! A waste of time and tax payer dollars.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 14, 2012 6:27:03 GMT -6
you do understand, its NOT LISTED but that only a committee is taking data?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 15, 2012 15:43:30 GMT -6
Taking data to see if listing is warranted, meaning the hole thing on this one species is a bogus deal period. Prairie Gray Fox LOL. A joke NO other way to put it plain and simple. A waste of time and tax payers dollars.
It is an oxy moron just to state such.
Like the forest Prairie Dog......................... Seen once in 1872
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tweedledumb
Skinner...
Someday I hope to live up to my name.
Posts: 62
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Post by tweedledumb on Dec 15, 2012 20:41:09 GMT -6
Critical Habitat, the method the federal government uses to steal management of private property and lock people out of public lands. My bet is this habitat is in the path of the keystone pipeline. They have to lock that stuff up so it will never happen. The ESA is being abused and Congress needs to take back the power they have delegated to USFWS.
edit: to add US in front of FWS to avoid possible misinterpretation.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 15, 2012 20:51:05 GMT -6
The pipeline is comming through NW SD and to think grey fox have been even a remote factor in the last 80+ years is insane. I lived in SD for almost 20 years and the only grey fox to speak of are in the extreme SE portion of the state. People in the NW don't know what a grey fox is period.
The habitat is not remotely close what so ever for greys. Again a joke pure and simple.
The pipeline will bring jobs and dollars to the area and the local schools will bring in 100,000's annually from taxation, NO reason to keep this from comming in NONE.
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tweedledumb
Skinner...
Someday I hope to live up to my name.
Posts: 62
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Post by tweedledumb on Dec 15, 2012 21:18:18 GMT -6
I went off half cocked and forgot sarcastic comments do not come across in print too well. I have a low tolerance level for this kind of thing since reading USA vs. ESA.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 16, 2012 9:14:19 GMT -6
wow- some giant leaps in conclusions-
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Post by Jarhead620 on Dec 16, 2012 10:19:56 GMT -6
Even in the unlikely event that Critical Habitat would be designated to include the Keystone corridor it would NOT stop the project. Even a most protectionist interpretation of Section 7 of the ESA couldn't reach a conclusion of destruction or adverse modification of such an extensive CH. Actually, I doubt that the proposed entities will even be listed. I could be wrong of course, although it pains me to admit that, LOL.
The last thing we need is for our dysfunctional Congress to manage the ESA. What they do need to do is reform the Act so the the USFWS can incorporate some common sense management in their implementation of the Act including barriers against the barrage of frivolous lawsuits by the anti-use groups.
I have to go flesh some coons, I'll add more later.
Larry
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tweedledumb
Skinner...
Someday I hope to live up to my name.
Posts: 62
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Post by tweedledumb on Dec 16, 2012 12:25:44 GMT -6
wow- some giant leaps in conclusions- I already admitted to going off half cocked. My gut tells me that there is a group somewhere who has issues with how the area is being managed. Maybe a vegan group who can not stand to see cattle grazing perfectly good grass? I do not believe that the ESA is about preserving animals anymore, it has become a tool used by extreme environmentalists to remove private property rights from good people, and lock up our natural resources. I believe who ever got this ball rolling could give a rats backside about skunks foxes or rabbits but hope to use them to achieve something else.
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