predatory birds

[bob brennan]

I have been seeing lots of talk about low muskrat populations aswell as talk of predation on pheasants and ducks its my feeling that a lot of this is due to birds of prey I feel numbers have been decreaseing since the 70s and owls hawks and eagles have been on the rise what do you think?

[collins]

Tried releasing pheasants on our farm for years. Would not only find the dead pheasents all over, seen several times hawks attacking them........sometimes you would even see a rooster fend them off.

[robertw]

I've seen Bald Eagles take swimming muskrats out of the water on occasion. Seen them go into the dive and expect to see them come up with a fish but ended up being muskrats.

[cowman]

I have witnessed hawks taking wild pheasants. They sit in a tree next to a food plot and pluck them off real regular.

[bogio]

I would suspect that loss of habitat and weather patterns has more to do with game species population declines than the hawks trying to feed themselves.

Brian

[JWarren]

other way around, food affects the hawk population

[slik1]

I saw a big horned owl fly off with one one time. Muskrat swimming along, bang, see ya. Almost dark, was fishing and he took off with it. Makes ya wonder how many more they get.

[bob brennan]

we also had ddt and open season to shoot them pre 70s

[rk660]

In low water years, when shoreline cover is gone, hawks will pretty much clean out the small pond of rats.

My buddy who farms, has seen one hawk pick off chick after chick pheasant till they are gone. He said he rarely sees them getting an about, but they really hammer the chicks.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I remember watching a flock of chukars get picked off by bobcats. Went from 22 down to 7 until I took a couple of cats out. Then it remained there until I left.

Watched a herd of antelope go from 24 to 9 one winter. Found where the lions were getting them when they came to water.

[Wright Brothers]

I've seen that stuff too. The old timers (pre ban) shot every raptor they could. Some had the GH owls stuffed and used for crow decoys. Saw owls pick free range chickens, full grown, from big hemlock.

No "wild" pheasant here in years.

One time I was after this huge Northern Pike for days. A duck had little ones in same area. Every day the count of ducklings got smaller till gone. Shoulda used a chick for bait. Found the pike dead couple weeks later and wondered if choked on the hen. Estimated over 44 inches.

It's a beach out there.

[trappnman]

I've seen hawks and eagles eating rats many times along the dike roads. Seen them take a few, but more times than not the rat is dead- whether by them, or scavenged, not known. During flood times, I think that quite a few are killed by daytime raptors, and many more at night.

And without a doubt, as a life long birder and outdoorsman, the number of raptors present has exploded since the 1950s. Eagles are everywhere around here, both goldens and bald, and they stay all year, as do most of the bigger hawks, and even the coopers, kestrels and such seem to stay longer if not all winter, and return earlier. Owl numbers, based on number heard, are also increasing.

And this is due, in my opinion, becasue of the milder winters- if the food is there, they tend to stay.

yet, knowing the above is true, I can state this. We have 2 kinds of rat habitat here- stream and big river marshes.

The rat numbers have, with minor ups/downs due to water (floods at certain times primarily), remained very stable, year after year decade after decade.

I think one reason the problem is hard to define, is because there are so many variables.

Take the upper Mississippi marshes- from them id 60s to the mid 90s, we had a series of 1000 year floods in the marshes- this cut habitat, certainly cut numbers, caused problems becasue the floods werel ong lasting. At the same time, vegitation changes were taking over the marshes, and silt fro mfeeder streams. And everytime the marshes would rebound, we'd start all over again.

We have the habitat. The vegitation differences have been noted and are being addressed. Streams that were chanalleized, have been allowed to go back to meandering-

I don't know if we will every get back to what it was- you also need to remember this- back in the heyday of marshes around here- you trapped a couple weeks, it iced up, you fought ice a few days, and done for the year. Water trapping was a 2-3 week excursion in the fall- some diehards would trap it here and there until end of Dec, but few, conibears were not popular or even known about for many of the old timers-

Not sure what laws were on house trapping- now seaosn is 2 monthsl onger at worst- mild winters, modern equipment, etc, have kept trappers trapping far longer, more effciently

this can't help- you cannot continue to knock down a rat population with almost ADC methods, and expect it to rebound.
If rats stayed at an honest $8 for 3-4,5 years- I think we'd really put the hurt on them. If it continues high, expect more restrictions and regulations to limit harvest

[mtcbrlatrap]

Predator prey relationships have developed over thousands of years if not longer. Sure hawks and owls can prey on rats and they do, but they are two of dozens that prey on rats. Habitat and weather or climate are bigger factors. If hawks and owls are so responsible for rat population drops why were rats still here prior to development of the USA and the early years of development? With the destruction of a huge percentage of the marsh wetlands we put more pressure and stress on the remaining wetlands. Also Thousands of smaller marshes and ponds provide more edge and better predator hunting than large expansive shallow wetlands do. Rivers and flowages in many areas are managed for water flow and electric power and thus many large bodies of water have too much fluctuation in water depths to provide stable wetland and shallow water areas.
Rivers too can drop or rise a foot or more and that creates issues for rats as well.
We have also paved and tiled millions of acres and thus we get more flashy wetland fill and then less water later and they don't hold enough water to keep rats other than seasonal and then these rats become nomadic and their survival risks are greatly increased.

Bryce

[blackhammer]

It's all about habitat and stable water levels.Raptors may hurt them in localized situations but in the big picture there not the reason for low rat numbers.

[bogio]

Amen to the last three posts. We doze,clear,plow,mow,drain,spray,pave,build, the lists goes on and on. Throw in hard winters with ice cover and flooding conditions during the spring nesting season and when the populations drop it's because of the hawks.

Brian

[JWarren]

the raptors probably originally ate prarie chickens and passenger pigeons and switched to rats and peoples chickens after farmland happened

[blackhammer]

Rabbits,mice.gophers,rabbits,carrion there all common raptor food.Doubt if they really affect any population by themselves over a large area.

[bob brennan]

for the last couple of years I have helped with some grouse release with tracking collars and Ibelieve about 20 percent of the mortality has been caused by birds of prey

[trappincoyotes39]

when releasing pheasants age of the birds makes a big differance

[hotandry]

Good thread.

When scouting country for a predator trapline I look for hawks and eagles as much as anything else. No hawks and you are asking for a bust of a trapline.

Anyone ever trapped in SE Texas near the King Ranch? I haven't either but there is one big arsed hawk sitting on every other telephone pole there for miles. I will bet money there are predators there galore. Flat furred, butt ugly critters for sure, but numbers.

And golden eagles? King of the hill. Terminators. I have caught them in the act of killing grey fox in traps several times. And we all know how feisty greys are. The fur bioligist from this state is a former govt. trapper and told me he has seen them kill coyotes in traps. Coyotes. That is one tough ombre bird.

As a helicopter pilot I have had to play chicken with them in the the air and me the chicken. The just don't give a darn. They will collide just to see who is toughest.