|
Post by bobwendt on Apr 24, 2009 14:27:45 GMT -6
some say choose your battles, I say beat their asses all the time.
|
|
decoy
Skinner...
Posts: 74
|
Post by decoy on Apr 24, 2009 14:57:26 GMT -6
I could give a rats a$$ if someone wants to hunt high fence or whatever trips their trigger but I don't care for them to be able to put it in the P&Y or B&C or SCI books or on T.V. acting like it was some awsome hunt. Be up front and do what you have to do. Not fair chase, say so and people won't mind....well a majority won't.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Apr 24, 2009 15:25:03 GMT -6
you hit the nail on the head, it`s all jealousy of a big rack. but really, who cares, who are you hunting for or trying to show off for anyway? is the guy that catches 1,000 fox where they are thicker than fleas a better trapper than the one that catches 20 where there are none? same deal. each to his own. personally I wouldn`t pay 10 cents to shoot anything, but why should I care if someone else does?
|
|
|
Post by Nightwish (Catpaw) on Apr 24, 2009 15:33:19 GMT -6
It's not a "huge" problem, it's actually pretty rare and it's illegal in most states. Matter of fact the possession and interstate transport of big cats is Federally regulated and private individuals need permits from USDA now. There are very few jaguars in private ownership, only around 100 in zoos around the country. They are not docile and have a nasty habit of mauling or killing their keepers. So it's really, really doubtful that melanistic jags are being released anywhere. Any state that allows canned hunts for big cats needs to outlaw that now before that issue gets used to restrict a lot more. Sorry, I aint buying it. I have seen too much..and its all credible and legit. I have talked with our PGC about the issue and they're some dumb or lying about it...its unreal. They actually released a memo on the Mtn Lion issue...and explained how to handle it and discredit the person. Govt at its finest... No one is truly policing this and these exotic sales are frequent and in various states in the US. Mt Hope in OH has 3 sales every year....just google them for the schedule. As for canned hunts. I have no problem with legal hunts and fair chase. Like FWS said, trapping isnt hunting....and this type of hunting only gives all sportmen a bad name. Black Jags are a hot commodity in the trade..and they are sold frequently...and illegally. The amount of UN-permitted animals is probaly 10 times what is actually documented....esp in warm southern states. There, they are actually BRED for the trade. Its another topic but the exotic sales issue dealing with REPTILES is another HUGE problem. Anyone know about the FL Evergaldes crisis? That problem is virtually nationwide and buying all kinds of venomous snakes and reptiles is very easy.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Apr 24, 2009 15:41:34 GMT -6
you havn`t seen jack, just repeating storys, rumors, and anti instigated propaganda. so just what is fair chase, you with a high powered rifle and a 10 power scope and drop some poor deer under a scrape a half mile away? you want fair chase, run the deer down , tackle him and pummel him and choke him to death bare handed. nothing else is fair chase.
|
|
|
Post by Nightwish (Catpaw) on Apr 24, 2009 16:03:16 GMT -6
you havn`t seen jack, just repeating storys, rumors, and anti instigated propaganda. so just what is fair chase, you with a high powered rifle and a 10 power scope and drop some poor deer under a scrape a half mile away? you want fair chase, run the deer down , tackle him and pummel him and choke him to death bare handed. nothing else is fair chase. No Bob you're wrong...dead wrong. No anti-propaganda here... Its real..and I was a part of the Production of the documentary. It centers around an OH cop that specializes in removing and protecting animals fromt he exotic trade and their irresponsible pet owners. Sorry old friend...its out of your league... Here's soemthing for you to chew on: www.mthopeauction.com/sales/saleSchedule.php25 Apr 2009 8:30am Machinery Sale 27 Apr 2009 6:00am Dairy Sale 28 Apr 2009 10:00am Farmers Produce Auction 30 Apr 2009 10:00am Farmers Produce Auction 1 May 2009 2:00pm Tack Sale 2 May 2009 8:00am Dutch Harness, Crossbred Sale 5 May 2009 10:00am Farmers Produce Auction 7 May 2009 10:00am Farmers Produce Auction 8 May 2009 6:00pm Tack Sale 9 May 2009 8:00am Horse Sale 15 May 2009 7:00am Mid Ohio Swap Meet 16 May 2009 7:00am Mid Ohio Swap Meet 6 Jun 2009 8:00am Kidney Fund Sale 12 Jun 2009 8:00am Summer Carriage & Draft Horse Sale 13 Jun 2009 8:00am Horse Sale 20 Jun 2009 8:30am Machinery Sale 27 Jun 2009 8:00am Red Cross Sale 17 Jul 2009 7:00am Mid Ohio Swap Meet 18 Jul 2009 7:00am Mid Ohio Swap Meet 25 Jul 2009 8:00am Rainbow of Hope Benefit Auction 30 Jul 2009 9:00am Holmes County Steam & Engine Show 31 Jul 2009 9:00am Holmes County Steam & Engine Show 1 Aug 2009 9:00am Holmes County Steam & Engine Show 15 Aug 2009 8:30am Machinery Sale 1 Sep 2009 9:00am Deadline for Horse Consignments 5 Sep 2009 8:00am Ohio Haiti Benefit Auction 17 Sep 2009 1:00pm Mid Ohio Exotic Animal and Bird Sale
18 Sep 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Exotic Animal and Bird Sale
19 Sep 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Exotic Animal and Bird Sale 28 Sep 2009 6:00pm Special Stock Cow & Feeder Calf Sale 6 Oct 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Carriage & Tack Sale 7 Oct 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Draft Horse Sale 8 Oct 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Draft Horse Sale 9 Oct 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Draft Horse Sale 10 Oct 2009 8:00am Horse Sale 16 Oct 2009 7:00am Mid Ohio Swap Meet 17 Oct 2009 7:00am Mid Ohio Swap Meet 26 Oct 2009 6:00pm Special Stock Cow & Feeder Calf Sale 6 Nov 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Exotic Animal and Bird Sale
7 Nov 2009 8:00am Mid Ohio Exotic Animal and Bird Sale 27 Nov 2009 5:00pm Toy Sale 25 Apr 2009 8:30am Machinery Sale Starting on Wagons at 8:30 AM Small items at 9:00 AM Large Equipment, Farm machinery at 9:00 AM Windows & Doors - 10:00 AM Lumber - 11:00 AM Buggies ... sale details
|
|
|
Post by FWS on Apr 24, 2009 17:02:37 GMT -6
You have to show up first.................... And when you do you'll find who will and who won't put the resources forward to do so. Nobody is going to put resources into or burn political capital into defending shooting captive bred big cats in enclosures. Well you also believe in bigfoot so it's not surprising. Very few, if any are in private hands. Nobody is releasing them. The UN doesn't issue permits, not their responsibility. If being imported into the U.S. the USF&WS would have to approve and issue a permit in accordance with what is allowed by CITES. And those permit applications appear in the Federal Register, like thisIt ain't easy. Odd that we can take a single hair collected from a wolverine wandering around NorCal, extract the DNA and identify the drainage it came from in ID. But not on all these melanistic jaguars and black mountain lions supposedly roaming the Eastern U.S. Reason why is that the conspiracy theories are total bullsh!t. Yeah so what ?
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Apr 24, 2009 17:09:52 GMT -6
my exact thoughts catpaw, you personally saw nothing, just repeating storys you bought into. fws, it`s not about shooting captive cats anymore that spotted owls are about spotted owls. it`s about destroying the timber harvest on public land, and big cats are about all legitimate animal use.
|
|
|
Post by Nightwish (Catpaw) on Apr 24, 2009 17:25:42 GMT -6
LMAO...I didnt say United Nations permits...I said UN-permitted..as in NON-permitted....illegals. Who is policing this? The USDA? Our state officials?
How do we know how many black jags there are if no one is policing it? The state of OH lets each county decide on permits....its a crap shoot and no one is truly policing it.
I saw the expose' filmed in living color from the Mt Hope sale. You telling me I was seeing things? How about the trade magazines which you can easy subscribe to....with people GIVING away cats of all different kinds? I was just out to see the Producer and was supposed to get a copy for this such case...but didnt.
How about the little girl mawled by an escaped pet in Cinncinatti a few years ago? I guess that was bigfoot. And the two chimp attacks recently? The guy with a bengal tiger in his Manhattan apt?
Thats just the tip of the iceberg....
|
|
|
Post by Nightwish (Catpaw) on Apr 24, 2009 17:35:41 GMT -6
By the way....they dont need to be imported anymore...thats a joke. its been so unregulated that they're now BRED in the US and easily sold. TX, OK and LA are three huge states for this. Cats dont need to be released....they often escape...then get into mischief. Or people illegally have them and get tired of them or get into trouble themsleves and have them released. drug dealers love giant snakes and big cats...for glory and protection. FWS, you USFWS? Govt employee? Here's the info on the Documentary. I sat with them for 2 hours viewing footage..and wasnt seeing things. By the way, i'm not against exotic ownership...just IRRESPONIBLE ownership... www.imdb.com/title/tt1111313/
|
|
|
Post by FWS on Apr 24, 2009 17:39:00 GMT -6
Bob, without realizing it you make my point, the shooting of captive big cats in enclosures is a surrogate issue that serves the animal rights groups in pushing for all inclusive reactionary legislation.
We knew that, could see it building and acted to deny them their surrogate. TX did the same thing and clearly defined what was and was not permissible in taking exotic animals.
I don't consider the practice regarding big cats to be a legitimate animal use and don't see those who engage in it as worthy of expending resources or political capital on. In no case where this has come before a legislature was there any opposition.
The spotted owl was used as a surrogate, but............ The problems with their endangerment were also real, more so in some areas than others. I've spent too much time on that issue, both in policy and in the field, to deny that spotted owls are not impacted by timber management and other factors.
But with good management based on sound science we can have both spotted owls and timber harvests. BTW, There was a lot more going on regarding the spotted owl listing than you've heard, it wasn't just the enviros pushing that.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Apr 24, 2009 18:04:12 GMT -6
lol, wasn`t the timber industry asking for it! anymore than the gm workers asking to be laid off. catpaw, we have no idea how many elephants are loose in pa either, as no one is tracking it. but I bet there is some documentary on it somewhere. even a law against selling ivory I`m sure. havn`t got a lead on any dead or alive free elephants do you? I need feed for the pee coyotes.
|
|
|
Post by FWS on Apr 24, 2009 18:06:36 GMT -6
Nope. So there goes the coverup conspiracy theory you were forming On jaguars, since they're a native species and listed under the ESA, the USF&WS has authority, captive bred or not. The USDA also has authority under the Captive Wildlife Safety Act, which doesn't allow interstate commerce in that species for private individuals and violating that would also be a Lacey Act violation. If there was any amount of trade or interstate commerce going on they'd be all over it. And they'd love to be. Spend huge resources with lots of undercover agents going after it. And I can give you a list of animal oriented "documentaries" that were totally contrived and utter bullsh!t. Many of the antis campaigns have been based on fraudulent film footage. Seals, whales, dolphins, bears, elephants, kangaroos, you name it they've done it. In fact we nailed them on one in 1994.
|
|
|
Post by JWarren on Apr 24, 2009 18:06:40 GMT -6
you havn`t seen jack, just repeating storys, rumors, and anti instigated propaganda. so just what is fair chase, you with a high powered rifle and a 10 power scope and drop some poor deer under a scrape a half mile away? you want fair chase, run the deer down , tackle him and pummel him and choke him to death bare handed. nothing else is fair chase. sounds exactly like anti propaganda
|
|
|
Post by FWS on Apr 24, 2009 18:14:38 GMT -6
Some of them actually did Bob and if you think a bit you'd realize why a private owner of a large tract of timber would do so.
Considering that property can be sold for more than the value of the timber, much more, and with no costs in harvesting or processing it. Particularly when an act of Congress buys it for nearly $1 Billion to preserve it. Which happened.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Apr 24, 2009 18:17:44 GMT -6
that`s not the timber industry, that`s personal greed . those folks didn`t give a care about spotted owls, just the big bucks to sell out. hey, do they live in indiana? I`ll sell my timberland for that. you and warren can buy it, lol, relax, joke.
|
|
|
Post by Wright Brothers on Apr 24, 2009 18:27:07 GMT -6
Say a guy knows a guy, who knows a guy lol, that can produce proof of Mt. lions living wild in Pa.
1 How much is it worth?
2 How much would it cost trappers?
If the PGC is looking the other way on this. Is that not in our favor?
I'm missing something here. What is the big deal to prove or disproove?
If this crap brings on political fire as in the lynx topics did in other states, you're going to have a lot more Pa. trappers pizzed off than you do know.
|
|
|
Post by Nightwish (Catpaw) on Apr 24, 2009 18:34:00 GMT -6
You're not hearing me...its NOT anti-propaganda...I wouldnt be part of anything like that. Its an independent film....
While I believe you about the USFWS and their polcing of it, the trade is far too big...and it isnt being policed properly. Cerval cats and Mtn Lions are the primary animals in trade..with the Mtn Lions being tops. The black cats are probably not as prevelent but still are easily available and bred. I witnessed 4 kits and the mother in a cage ready to be sold at the Ohio auction..and yes, it was on a Vid.. it was secretly taped as no cameras are allowed in. its actually run by the Amish.
In the trade magazines I saw...bengal tigers, Mtn Lions and chimps were the primary animals sold..and cheap or for free even. I only saw one black cat listing in the 3 mags I saw....but they are available. Not sure if they're black South American jags or African leopards...they all sorta look the same.
Some of the bred Mtn lions are bred SMALL so they can be house pets....and I saw that too. A couple in NV are BIG pro-exotic aniamls and talked openly about it...with their 80 lb Cougar sitting right there on their sofa. Missouri is also another big state for exotics...and they have a big sale every year.
As I said, I am IN the Doc...as I helped with their investigation here. I'm not easily duped and got to know these guys real well. The Producer, Mike Webber, is a prodcuer/director of 5 films and owns a prod company. His neighbor is the man they follow, Tim Harrison..the cop who does the rescues and captures. they're all on the up and up...100%. This IS a big problem...and has been talked about on the news...but again, its just the tip of the iceberg. The chimp thing In Conn is another classic example....and they are very dangerous.
|
|
|
Post by Nightwish (Catpaw) on Apr 24, 2009 19:05:50 GMT -6
Say a guy knows a guy, who knows a guy lol, that can produce proof of Mt. lions living wild in Pa. 1 How much is it worth? 2 How much would it cost trappers? If the PGC is looking the other way on this. Is that not in our favor? I'm missing something here. What is the big deal to prove or disproove? If this crap brings on political fire as in the lynx topics did in other states, you're going to have a lot more Pa. trappers pizzed off than you do know. Your right..and I didnt see this till now. I dont know what the answer is...and there could be an issue witht he anti's about an endangered cat. But at least PA has a permit system...but it just isnt policed very well. Its likely to fall under the USFWS and/or the USDA in the future-- nationwide...which isnt what i'd like to see... more Govt control..
|
|
|
Post by FWS on Apr 24, 2009 19:08:27 GMT -6
They were and still are part of the timber industry.
Sure I am, but I'm telling you it's not the problem you make it out to be and the species involved are not as you claimed.
Question is why pay big $$$'s to shoot a captive mountain lion when a fair chase wild mountain lion can be hunted with a guide for well under $2000, in multiple Western states and Canadian provinces.
Or shoot a captive leopard or African lion when wild specimens can be legally hunted in multiple sub-Saharan African countries and legally imported into the U.S. as trophies.
If someone wants a jaguar or a tiger they need to get involved in the conservation efforts that are pushing for allowing limited hunts for those species to promote their conservation.
In the examples I provided above we can demonstrate the direct conservation benefits of allowing legal, regulated hunting with a Hell of a lot of sound science and economics backing it up.
|
|