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Post by bobwendt on Mar 8, 2009 10:26:10 GMT -6
I`ll repeat a previous post. out county is EXTINCT of beavers. the drainage board finds the beaver or gets the complaint. then they send a private trapper out, that bid the lowest price/head/ calender year. here it was $50 this year. he goes year round, keeps any parts he can sell. maybe he pilfers in a few extra tails. I doubt it, or not many. the drainage board aren`t fools. let me repeat, EXTINCT, and dirt cheap. they allow a land owner to kill his own beaver for the $50 a head if he refuses access to the trapper. none ever do. I kill my own and then give the kills to the county trapper as he is a young buck that needs the money and works hard. all legal drains have a 75 foot right of way by the county/state in indiana. the cost, well exactly $50 a beaver! who pays? the landowners are all charged a ditch assement based on acres in a drainage. so mant cents an acre. just like the predator boards in the west. even if the ditch isn`t on them, they have field tiles and surface water that drains away. so 100% of farm land is charged. except for the county board collecting the ditch assesment and paying the trapper, there is no other expense. thge ditch assesment is tacked onto the annual land taxes, so no way out of it. it`s about 1/50th of what w.s. would charge the county. and works perfect since implemented about 15 years ago. the first trapper ever bid $35 a beaver the first year, but was catching (lol) 25-35 tails/job. he was (true) a big nta member, bwahahaha. well duh, he was fired and has since died of a cocaine overdose.
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Post by SgtWal on Mar 8, 2009 13:39:27 GMT -6
If you can find a trapper job that gets $40K a year show me please. These start around $25K. Now in ADC I can get $100 a head for beaver, and I work my can off to get them all.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 8, 2009 13:42:24 GMT -6
w.s. entry level pays over 40g counting the health insurance and other benefits
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Post by pat on Mar 8, 2009 15:10:24 GMT -6
About 6 months ago I requested a financial breakdown of what it costs to train, equip, and maintain a WS employee in the field per year including all retirement benefits, health care, etc. Under the FOIA, their response was that it cost, on average, $70,000 per year for every Biological Science Technician (Wildlife) - a.k.a. trapper.
The USDA-APHIS-WS program is mandated by federal law. If we all are in agreement that private industry can do it better, quicker, and cheaper, then a bunch of you (us) had better get off our behinds and contact our President, Representatives, and Senators to have that particular federal law repealed.
Pat
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Post by FWS on Mar 8, 2009 15:20:11 GMT -6
I don't think it's 'mandated' per se in regards to controlling problem wildlife.
Particularly not when species like beaver, coyotes, skunks, etc. are resident wildlife which are owned by the States. So those species are not a 'Federal problem'.
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Post by robertw on Mar 8, 2009 15:23:33 GMT -6
But you have USDA WS trappers handling residential complaints for hire competing with private NWCOA people.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 8, 2009 16:16:42 GMT -6
that is true. they do skunks in gillette wyoming even. so it`s not all coyotes and bevers for agricultural interests. my only advice would be this is a very fine line and don`t anyone get silly and shoot us and them both in the foot. we can all work togather a lot easier than apart.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Mar 8, 2009 16:29:23 GMT -6
Well said.
Joel
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Post by robertw on Mar 8, 2009 16:36:25 GMT -6
True, but....The private sector should at least be allowed to bid on these jobs.
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Post by CoonDuke on Mar 8, 2009 18:06:26 GMT -6
By having the federal govt. involved in animal control/trapping it kinda "legitimizes" doing it in a way.
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Post by pat on Mar 9, 2009 6:39:28 GMT -6
I'm not writing anybody, and I didn't think anybody else would either. I believe there is a better way in which private and government can cooperatively work together in a win-win senario. If anybody is interested in my thoughts PM me. I'd be glad to discuss it. Besides, I only have my ideas. Don't know if I have considered everything.
FWS, I believe it is the Animal Damage Control Act of 1928 or 1931. It basically gives the Federal Government the authority to protect agriculture, timber, human health, infrastructure, etc. from wildlife depredation and disease outbreaks. They utilize cooperative agreements with each individual state to operate in each state.
Pat
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Post by Woodsmoke on Mar 9, 2009 7:05:05 GMT -6
I agree with what Robert has said about the jobs needing to be put out for bid.
Also agree that WS continues to grow itself by expanding into larger and larger areas of the private sector. Want proof?
I've been offered positions with WS 3 separate times. My answer to them was "Thanks, but I make more working privately, then I can working for you - and I don't have to fill out my forms in triplicate." WS supervisor says " Hey, you can bring your private work with you" He didn't understand that it wasn't about the "joy" of trapping squirrels, moles, bats, etc - but about the fact that I make more privately then they could ever pay me.
The last time I talked to them the starting salary for an entry level tech was between $25-32K, plus benefits (which is the most attractive thing they have to offer).
Did some research a couple years ago and on average it cost USDA/WS $60K a year to outfit and pay a technician, and the cost per beaver killed in VA was $350+.
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Post by Cal Taylor on Mar 9, 2009 10:11:56 GMT -6
You guys are overlooking a few important issues. I have no experience with beaver complaints or trapping. Not many here. But when it comes to coyotes the reason that the private or bounty system doesn't work is because most guys just want to skim through and take the "gravy" make some money and be gone. I know, I've done it. The problem is when you have one screwed up wild ass pair of coyotes that are killing steadily it may take a week or possibly longer to get them killed. No private trapper is going to spend a week or more on a particular coyote that is only worth 50 bucks to them. It doesn't pencil out. That why the figures sometimes show that the average coyote costs so much. It's not the "average" coyote that costs all the money. The average ones are cheap. The exceptional ones are the expensive ones. There are plenty of exceptional ones. With the cat trappers by the score, and a predator caller under every rock the coyotes in my country are getting wiser. Every cat trapper in the country here promises the rancher to "catch a few coyotes" to help out. Some can, most can't, but they will sure screw up a few and make them harder for me. But when a problem arises in the spring such as lamb or calf killing the fur trapper is back at his town job. He doesn't have the time to come spend a week finding and killing a family group (old ones and pups) and doing the job right. If he does show up, he wacks one old one, calls it good and goes back to town leaving a bigger problem than was there originally. Sometimes it's easy. The coyotes are near where the problem is and by whatever method you can get them all in a day or two. Sometimes it isn't, they may be coming from several miles away and be highly educated and it take time to figure that out. A guy that is working by the head isn't going to spend much time there, he can't afford to. He's going to go somewhere he knows he can get some numbers. There are guys that can help out, Bob comes here every year and lowers some fox numbers, and it's a good deal. But he doesn't have time to spend on particular problem coyotes and he knows it. He is here for numbers and it takes numbers to make his deal work. I'm pretty sure the beaver deal is the same. When you are down to just a few trap shy smart beaver, nobody wants that job. Can't make anything.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 9, 2009 10:22:29 GMT -6
good post
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 9, 2009 11:45:01 GMT -6
cal, I could get those coyotes, but always stayed off the w.s mans turf. when a few coyotes or den located, or even a track, I always put you on it( or notified land owner to contact you), steve before ,and craig before that. it was just good business on my part. tell craig you need an assistant for denning this year, temp position, as everything else is belly up for me now. I`d be only too glad to help out in your county, or anywhere for that matter. I know a good bit of several areas and likely historic dens already in campbell, johnson, sweetwater , natrona,and fremont . for the money but more just to smell the sage and be there again. it`s hard to leave it . and I`m sure I could sniff the sob`s out in new areas too.
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Post by Cal Taylor on Mar 9, 2009 15:54:09 GMT -6
Bob, I know you're capable. The only point I was trying to make is that in your previous business venture it wouldn't be profitable to chase a single coyote or pair of coyotes around for a week or better. And I know that some of them turn up quicker than that, but some don't, no matter how good you are.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 9, 2009 16:18:29 GMT -6
I use to have to do that but then you guys showed so I had a good excuse not to then! beleive me , contrary to most privates , I was happy to put it onto you guys. you got paid and I didn`t( or I shouldsay not enough), just felt obligated since I was on for other stuff. and lots of june ones too, wet b`s. but you are right, I did only the minimum I had to , to keep the peace
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Post by pat on Mar 10, 2009 9:56:17 GMT -6
Cal Taylor, we don't know each other and I won't even begin to question your abilities. If you are with the USDA in Wyoming you are good enough for me.
But I will take exception to your comments. Lets not discuss transient trappers that are showing up to trap for X number of days while they fulfill a niche market. Rather, in keeping with the original complaints about the the USDA program, lets focus on a local who has the abilities to successfully harvest predators at all times of the year with a wide assortment of tools. A private contractor. Are you saying that an individual that has a good contract with a county for predator control wouldn't or couldn't finish the job on a particularally difficult coyote(s)? That might be possible if they were only being paid on a per animal fee, but if they were being contracted by the year, or even for a set period of time (i.e. March through July), they would bust their hump to get any and all predators that are the cause of depredation. If they didn't they wouldn't be in business for very long. And the same would apply for managing depredation by beaver or any other animal.
This is not a personal attack on anybody within the USDA - this is a professional debate. Private industry should not have to compete against their own government - which we are forced to do simply because the government has technicians in the field doing what we do or want to do - we just want access to our fair piece of the pie.
Pat
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Post by robertw on Mar 10, 2009 11:40:20 GMT -6
The other issue is the Federal Government giving funds to the States to employ a Federal Agency with out any type of bid process allowing the private sector a chance at these jobs.
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Post by ohiyotee on Mar 10, 2009 12:09:18 GMT -6
Cal ,I still can't see the justification for gov. sponsored trapping. the use of any tax money going to predator eradication is a rip off to the rest of us. If you choose to be a rancher , sheeper , crop grower, why would it be my problem if you have some thing eating your profits. Agriculture is a business same as any and should be treated as such. If one chooses a life in agriculture they should accept the responsibility of managing predators on their own it just part of that job description. Why is it that if i hit a deer its my problem and i get know financial help from the gov. , but if a coyotes is eating my lambs they send someone out. It is a financial lose in both cases . I can only see gov. intervention in cases of public health risk, other than that it is preferential treatment to appease a select few.
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