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Post by Brad H on Jul 6, 2006 15:43:03 GMT -6
"This calling game does not have rules that are carved in stone."
That's for sure. It's a "half the time it works, half the time it don't" game.
One thing is for sure, the more you do it, the more behavior you see, the more you'll realize that absolutely anything can and will happen.
Brad
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Post by Wiley on Jul 6, 2006 17:53:03 GMT -6
K9,
To your question whether it is better to locate with a howler or a siren, that depends. Depends on how authentic each of them sound. I have located coyotes equally with sirens, howling, and tapes of howling. Not sure there is a difference but they need to be authentic sounding for the best results.
As far as answering a "challenge", not to be smart but I haven't seen anyone that can actually define a "challenge". To me, a "challenge" sounds just like a "warning bark" from a coyote that has seen you. I can't tell you whether it's a "challenge" or a "warning bark" and I have been calling and killing coyotes for 30 years.
So much of this coyote language stuff is hype and speculation. Even Bill Austin admitted that to me when cornered on it. He said it all comes down to selling them the idea that there is a coyote there. The rest is part of a "quest for originality" by novice callers that I find so annoying. Someone has a theory on what a coyote is saying and who can argue it since coyotes don't talk?
I do feel that Ed Sceery does a very good job of describing coyote vocalizations in his instructional video. My own experiences mirrors his explanations. Where Ed falls short is in advising callers to call with the wind which is a formula for disaster in many areas.
~SH~
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Jul 6, 2006 18:07:51 GMT -6
"So much of this coyote language stuff is hype and speculation." ------------------------------------ Exactly! What Wiley said about warning barks is one of the main reasons that I used to strongly advise folks to buy the "dogging coyotes" video from ELK Industries. It was the first video I ever watched, that you could actually see and hear everything you needed to know about howling up coyotes. (sound wise I mean).
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Post by k9 on Jul 7, 2006 18:53:38 GMT -6
Thanks guys....like the old Laugh In Show, I find this "veddddy interesting".
By the way Wiley, not to start any trouble....but Rich called you "paunchy". I think the term "big boned" is probably a little more poltically correct!
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jul 8, 2006 8:06:34 GMT -6
I have located coyotes equally with sirens, howling, and tapes of howling. Not sure there is a difference but they need to be authentic sounding for the best results.
Not sure how this applies to sirens. How can a siren be authentic? What am I missing here?
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Jul 8, 2006 8:38:08 GMT -6
"Not sure how this applies to sirens. How can a siren be authentic? What am I missing here?" --------------------------- It must sound like a REAL siren sir. The old motor type fire engine siren, the loud wail of the old "town" siren or maybe one of those new fangled electronic sirens like some police cars have on em now. Mickey mouse hand crank rigs will not cut it. Now the little hand crank rigs and train whistles will produce a responce now and then mind you, just not authentic enough to be very reliable.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 8, 2006 11:34:58 GMT -6
Interesting. I was wondering if you needed a siren that sounded like a howl..LOL
My father in law got the old siren from the Fire dept tower....he just uses it as a "wolf whistle" at our local parade. Perhaps I'll be borrowing it next fall!
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Post by Rich Higgins on Jul 9, 2006 17:27:53 GMT -6
quote][romans117, There is a good reason that I was careful to not single out any particular advise that I consider flawed. I will not be involved in a game of harsh words over the internet. I am too old and wise for that. Today is the 4th of july. I hope you enjoy a lot of good food and relaxation today. My United states flag is flying proudly today. I will be thinking of all the good men who have died for our freedom, and the good men who are fighting for out freedom even as I type this.[/quote]
richc, who the heck are you and what have you done with Rich Cronk?
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Jul 9, 2006 20:12:04 GMT -6
Higgy, I am being a good boy over here. Be nice. They don't allow hoot owl calling over here neither, so scat buddy. Lord I apologize for that right up there, and please be with the starving pygmies down there in Africa--Amen
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Post by Wiley on Jul 18, 2006 10:18:50 GMT -6
T'man,
I believe that a siren does sound like coyotes howling to a coyote. Either that or they respond because of the volume, the frequency, or it hurts their ears. Don't know why it works for sure but just know it works.
My word "authentic" applied to the howls more than a siren. Certain sirens do work better than others.
~SH~
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Post by cdog911 on Jul 18, 2006 14:06:51 GMT -6
k9,
As far as the authenticity discussion goes, Scott points to the need for authentic sounding howls. But, it's been my experience that the need for authenticity goes much further than that. It goes to the circumstances and conditions under which any particular howl is used. As a good friend of mine once said (he's an elk guide and caller), you must "paint the entire picture". In our application, that would mean that the howls or vocalizations you choose to use should be appropriate to the time of the year and the circumstances that are occurring in the coyote's life.
Having said that, I took away from my conversation with my buddy that calling coyotes must be less restrictive than are elk because you can get away with out-of-season blurbs that are often very effective, i.e., puppy yelps in the winter. To me, painting the picture for coyotes means more to create an illusion consistent with the environment rather than obeying hard and fast rules. At this time of the year, I've done very well using high pitched pup lone howls, lost puppy howls and ki-yi's either followed by or preceding distress sounds. Because we've been working the same pack and area for some time now, it's required that we really mix and match up a lot of variables to be able to continue offering fresh goodies.
In any event, success with howling at any time of the year still requires a very firm understanding of proper approach, stand selection, etc., if not moreso than with distress only.
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Post by Wiley on Jul 19, 2006 10:58:57 GMT -6
cdog911: "Scott points to the need for authentic sounding howls. But, it's been my experience that the need for authenticity goes much further than that. It goes to the circumstances and conditions under which any particular howl is used. As a good friend of mine once said (he's an elk guide and caller), you must "paint the entire picture". In our application, that would mean that the howls or vocalizations you choose to use should be appropriate to the time of the year and the circumstances that are occurring in the coyote's life."
There is a tremendous amount of speculation that goes into the need for certain types of howls at certain times of years and what a coyote deems as "authentic". When it comes to the hype of "female invitation howls" and "lost mate howls" and "lone male howls" etc, etc. How the heck does anyone know that the coyote out there is responding because he thought he just heard a lone female 2 year old coyote suggest that she's lonely as opposed to responding because another coyote is in the area? Who can argue since coyotes don't tell us why they responded?
A lot of the coyote language hype is just that, hype. We know what works but we speculate as to why it works. Writers who capitalize on other's knowledge and "fast buck artists" selling videos speculate more than most because it makes for good stories.
In order for a coyote vocalization to be authentic, what's more important than what time of year it is used is that the howl is coming from a place that would be considered "authentic". I haven't seen many coyotes howl while standing beside a pickup. A coyote also knows that if it heard a coyote howl from the side of bared off hill, something's wrong if he can see the entire hill and there's no coyote anywhere to be seen. Just as suspicious is a howl coming from an area that was just preceeded by vehicle noise in areas where vehicle noise is associated with danger. Considering the importance of coyote vocalizations to a coyote's every day activities, it doesn't take long to educate coyotes to your particular howls if those same howls are associated with vehicle noise and the assocation of danger no matter how authentic they sound or what time of year they are made.
To paint the bigger picture, you have to fully understand the bigger picture first. Where a howl is coming from is just as important as what it sounds like and possibly more so. It basically comes down to selling a coyote the idea that another coyote is there in a natural setting. Then it comes down to selling a coyote the idea that this other coyote either has a prey species down or is putting the hurt on another coyote. I don't care where or what time of year. These principles work anywhere at anytime "IF" COYOTES ARE IN THE MOOD TO RESPOND. If they're not in the mood to respond, it doesn't matter what you throw at them. Some guys think they have this coyote vocalization game down to a science only to watch some amateur with what sounds to us like a pathetic imitation of a coyote howl call coyotes like there was no tomorrow.
We know what works but we speculate as to why it worked. Everyone's "theories" have equal merit because coyotes won't tell us how they really feel. The only way to sort it out is to see who brings home the bacon and who just talks or writes about it.
~SH~
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Post by cdog911 on Jul 19, 2006 14:18:33 GMT -6
All good points, Scott. I'd like to add one more thing.
Too many callers try to come at howling with the same perspective as they've used calling with distress sounds. The reason that the coyote responds to howling originates from a different part of their psyche, in my opinion, and the response differs in its nature as well.
Bottom line - if a guy really wants to learn how to be a better coyote caller, he needs to focus as much or more of his time and energy on learning about the coyote, and less on the actual calling. If there's one thing I've found to be a common denominator in good coyote callers, their ability to call is only a small part of their overall knowledge of coyotes and coyote hunting. And howling/ vocalizations takes you much further into the inner workings of the coyotes than does conventional calling. Do you agree or disagree?
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Post by lb on Jul 19, 2006 19:05:14 GMT -6
I'm trying to figure out if you guys know what you are talking about, or no? Good hunting. LB
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Post by SteveCraig on Jul 19, 2006 20:14:17 GMT -6
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Post by cdog911 on Jul 20, 2006 5:36:42 GMT -6
lb,
Nope. Just needed some something to write.
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Post by Wiley on Jul 20, 2006 7:18:36 GMT -6
cdog911: "if a guy really wants to learn how to be a better coyote caller, he needs to focus as much or more of his time and energy on learning about the coyote, and less on the actual calling."
Sexist! LOL!
We are trying to encourage Halle Berry, Michelle Pfiefer, Diane Lane, Jessica Simpson, and Angelina Jolie to take up coyote calling. Don't want to make them think it's just a man's world.
If a "PERSON" really wants to learn how to be a better coyote caller, "THEY" need to focus as much or more of "THEIR" time and energy on learning about COYOTE BEHAVIOR IN THE PARTICULAR HABITAT THAT THEY PLAN TO CALL, and less on the actual calling.
I agree!
lb: "I'm trying to figure out if you guys know what you are talking about, or no?
The invitation's still open!
~SH~
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Post by cdog911 on Jul 20, 2006 15:13:44 GMT -6
Ah, crap. I'm sorry. I just recently made it over here and forgot about Hlle Berry. THAT must be what you meant in your earlier reference to knowing the bigger picture. Oh, and don't forget Jesica Alba. Natgear body paint and who gives a damn if the coyotes shw up or not.
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Post by Brad H on Jul 21, 2006 2:01:08 GMT -6
Angelina Jolie
Okay, but only if she'll deflate those Dennis Rodman lips.
Man that bugs the hell out of me!
Brad
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Post by cdog911 on Jul 21, 2006 18:26:40 GMT -6
I'm thinking something here, but it would be extremely inapporopriate for me to post it. So, forget it.
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