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Post by NEPISIGUIT on Feb 15, 2008 22:04:49 GMT -6
Some time ago someone posted on this site about making breakaways. Anyone recall who it was or how they were done.
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Post by JWarren on Feb 16, 2008 9:49:55 GMT -6
I've been making my own out of 1/7 strand of a 7x7 1/16 cable. got the idea from hollywood and so did slim peterson who put it in the new snare methods book. my own testing has cast doubt on the mathematics of the break strengths found in slim's book but they'll damn sure hold a coyote and release a deer
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Post by NEPISIGUIT on Feb 16, 2008 22:15:47 GMT -6
Any chance of finding out how you make them or are you selling them? Would like to try a few. What we are using now is a S hook with a breaking strength of 200# . J warren you mention that you questioned the breaking strength as stated by Slim in his book. What was that listed at? Our 200# breakaway holds coyotes but does not release on all bear or deer.On most snares they work great however.Moose open them all.
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Post by JWarren on Feb 16, 2008 23:22:31 GMT -6
just use the strand of cable to attach the lock to the ferrule, supposedly breaks at about 260# for the 1/16 as per the book, 5/64 was listed as about 300# loop pull, i think its more but nobody knows how to test a snare anyway so fuggit
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Post by SteveCraig on Feb 17, 2008 9:15:08 GMT -6
I use the cable bad's and I love them. I also use Marty's S hooks to. No problems to date with them either. Just use one strand of a 7x7 piece of cable. I use the 5/64 on all snares over 10 feet. On shorter snares you will need to go to one strand of 1/16. To date, these have worked quite well for me. Many guys use a double ferral to attach the cable loop, but I really believe this changes the breaking poundage, due to it not being an INLINE pull at this point. I went to a 1/8 stop button and much prefer this route. FWIW Steve
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Post by mmwb (Andrew Parker) on Feb 17, 2008 9:16:57 GMT -6
I don't know if Hollywood got it from Bill Ilchik, or the other way around, but there are clear instructions and pics in Bill's book, "Wild West Bobcats." Its an excellent read and well worth the $...
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Post by NEPISIGUIT on Feb 17, 2008 17:08:12 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses.I like the idea of one wire of 7x7 size being able to hold one of our large coyotes.Will see if i can find Bills Book.My present S hooks are Marty ,s design Steve, but i caught a doe deer using one last year. Don,t know how she got her head that low to the ground but she did.This year it was a female bear. Haedly moved from where she entered the snare. Setting on old woods roads that are somewhat open with grass and a few shrubs.The coyotes seem to prefer these types of roads instead or those that are really grown in. When the S hook is open i can usually tell what animal did it. Hairs in the cam or wire,
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Post by JWarren on Feb 17, 2008 20:38:03 GMT -6
.My present S hooks are Marty ,s design Steve, but i caught a doe deer using one last year. Don,t know how she got her head that low to the ground but she did.This year it was a female bear. Haedly moved from where she entered the snare. apparently there are now two of us who doubt the veracity of claims that a bad can release neck caught big game with any reliability
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Post by billcat on Feb 17, 2008 22:58:53 GMT -6
Nepisigutt, It's not one wire of the 7X7, it's one of the 7 bundles of 7 wires that Steve uses. I wanted to copy his use of the breakaway, but didn't have any cable of the right size. Tried some possible substitutes and found that .032 stainless aircraft safety wire works. Camlock is the only lock I've used with it. The big advantage to wire over cable breakaways that I can see is you can twist the wire around until the loop lays flat. So far, the .032 has turned loose 3 lions and held all cats and coyotes. They were all big lions and I don't expect kittens will get away, they are usually not any bigger than a bobcat. If you want something lighter, try .025 safety wire. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't recommend it. As fast as a neck caught cat goes down, I wouldn't be surprised if it would work. Coyotes? You can find the safety wire in 1lb cans at: www.aircraft-spruce.com Do a search for Safety Wire. Bill
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Post by JWarren on Feb 18, 2008 7:50:08 GMT -6
bill, any idea what that wire is breaking at? would you guess that it is moe or less than a strand of 1/16?
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Post by NEPISIGUIT on Feb 18, 2008 9:07:17 GMT -6
Good info on the breakaway,s. J warren ,yes there is two and probably more. Anyway i will continue to use them as in most cases they work great. Just have to be a little more careful of where and time of year i set on . Traps work better in most nusiance wildlife work but both have their place
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Post by billcat on Feb 18, 2008 10:17:40 GMT -6
The .032 was doing the breaking, not the 1/16" cable, so I'd guess the cable is stronger. The only test I did was very crude. I put the snare loop around a 2" pipe up in the rafters of my shop. I slowly jacked up the rear of my 4-wheeler with a come-along attached to the snare. Carefully crawled on the four wheeler seat. Breakaway held, when I bounced on the seat, it broke.
Another break-away I tried was to replace the camloc steel rivet with a dead soft pure aluminum aircraft rivet, spec # MS470A4-6. Did the same test with the same results.
One thing to think about and I don't know anybody else's test method, most testing done so far has probably been done using a one time steadily increasing pull to the failure point. Mine was done with a slowly applied force, approx 1/2 the weight of my 4-wheeler = 200 lb. + 1/2 my weight = 100 lb, then an instantly applied force of unknown amount (the bounce of 1/2 my weight). You also have to remember that in doing the bounce, the 100 lbs of my weight was removed while I was falling. So it's really more like, the break-away would support a 300 lb static force, but not a 200 lb static force + a 100 lb instantanious force. Another thing to consider, the instantanious force was somewhat dampened by the cushioning of the 'wheeler seat, spreading it over a short period of time.
When a critter is in a snare, there are too many variables involved to have any real idea of how the break-away is going to perform. Weight of the critter, length of the snare, is it a run from the cable extended all the way in one direction across to full extension in the opposite direction or a steady pull, is the cable tangled in the brush (shorter and a shock-spring effect), how many times does the critter hit the end of the cable and how hard, where is the animal caught (neck, waist or a foot). If a break-away is designed to release under all circumstances, there are going to be a lot of lost target animals. I wanted mine to release my rancher friend's cows, wild horses, elk, deer and hopefully most lions. So far, so good. and, I'm sure it's not perfect.
I'm pretty much opposed to the developement of standard tests for break-aways, because, as we all know, nothing is standard in the field. Sooner or later the requirement would be to release under all circumstances and that would make the snare a worthless piece of equipment.
Bill
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Post by NEPISIGUIT on Feb 18, 2008 14:52:52 GMT -6
vERY GOOD POINT BILLCAT. Your last paragraph says it all. I agree let sleeping dogs lie. Will continue to use Marty,s S hooks until something better comes up if at all. Thanks for all the comments.
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Post by BadDog on Feb 19, 2008 9:20:35 GMT -6
I guess you guys are going to make me post to clear the air.
I sell numerous different S-Hook BADs. I suspect that Nepisiguit has what is called the Commercial 200 lb BAD.
What I use is what is called an Elite 265 lb BAD.
I also have 4 others.
Six different breakaway devices. Each breakaway is designed to perform a different purpose.
Some are for wolves, some are for coyotes. Some are for people who are on a buget.
Some release neck caught deer with high consistency (INCLUDING YEARLINGS).
Isn't that a nice thing?
If you don't know, then please don't blow!!!
I stand firmly by what I have said in the past. The Elite 265 lb S-hook BAD is a sweetheart BAD that lets almost all of my neck caught deer go. Last week I even caught what I figure was a yearling (year and a half) cougar and released clean.
However, the Elite 265 lb S-Hook BAD might not be the best choice for Nepisiguit because he is snaring the massive eastern coyote. He is using the budget minded Commercial 200 lb S-Hook BAD which is actually a pretty fair choice for his massive eastern coyotes because it will hold them. A wonderful feature for the eastern coyote trapper. Commercial 200 lb s-hooks are a nice cheap BAD. I retail them for 16 cents each on a 100 count here in Canada.
I tried the Woods method once upon a time. Lots of piddling around. I don't like piddling. It's a fine method if you only have to build 50 snares per year, but if you need a thousand snares a year... well lets just say I have better things to do. The woods method has value, but you better never reuse your BAD, use it once and cut it off and rebuild. If you don't you will lose coyotes unnecessarily. By Woods method, I am refering to the one strand of cable home made BAD.
Nepisiguit can try the Elite 265 lb BAD with caution on his massive coyotes, however it will be necessary to overcrimp the device to increase it's breaking point. Not a scientific method, but a method that may work. Still might not.
Another option is my Elite 385 lb BAD. This is a new BAD, designed for the Eastern coyotes. Untested at this time. It's higher poundage rating will undoubtably hold more deer, but will lose less eastern coyotes!
Because the eastern coyote is so much larger than the western, it will be a difficult task to build a breakaway that will hold the eastern coyote while letting the neck caught deer go with consistency.
If you don't understand or believe me this time, then I give up on you. I will pass you off as close minded and unteachable.
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Post by JWarren on Feb 19, 2008 10:26:14 GMT -6
So your 200lb bad is stronger than your 265lb bad?
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Post by SteveCraig on Feb 19, 2008 12:47:04 GMT -6
Marty, I have had 2 Indiana coyotes open the 265 elete to date. One escaped and the other one was dead, but the s hook was opened slightly. It has released every deer to date with no problems there. Only one was neck caught. These are on 24 hr. checks. I like them. I also like the cable too. True, they are slower to put together. And I have made several hundred at a time. Your s hook is the only s hook that has worked with any consistancy for me, for not only holding the coyote as well as letting the deer release. I would be afraid to use the 385 ones as I feel that the deer would be dead. Steve
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Post by NEPISIGUIT on Feb 19, 2008 12:48:08 GMT -6
Bad dog. So far so good with the S hooks (comercial) on coyote. Have not lost any. Am also using stingers. I did not know you had posted on this subject before. I saw the S hook for the first time in North Bay two years ago. A snare was given to me by Gord Klassen who you likely know. He told me about the Comercial bads. The S hooks are sold here by several trap dealers. 200and 300#.
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Post by SteveCraig on Feb 19, 2008 16:50:42 GMT -6
Steve Gappa also sells them too!
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Post by BadDog on Feb 20, 2008 8:38:47 GMT -6
JWarren, Yup the 200 commercial is stronger than the 265 Elite, and no that doesn't make any sense huh? I haven't had the 200 commercial test broke on a machine properly yet, labelled it as a straight pull and it just happened to stay that way, while the Elites are all loop pull values. Sorry.
Nepisiguit, I wasn't scolding you!
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Post by Stef on Feb 20, 2008 8:49:46 GMT -6
I never tried the elite Marty sells.
All I tried was the 200 commercial.
I didn't lost any coyote yet...
The 1st year I tried them, I didn't over crimp. Had a couple large coyotes who opened the S-hook a little but like I said, no lost. I caught a large female deer by the neck with a no over crimped 200" commercial and she was dead... but hey... later I caught 3 more coyotes around her...LoL
Since that time, I over crimped all of them and I can't remember if a coyote opened one. Didn't catch a deer by the neck since that time but caught plenty by the legs and they are all gone and free.
I like the #200 commercial. Deer are not a real big problem for me so... Its my choice.
Stef
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