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Post by motrapperjohn on Feb 12, 2008 17:18:33 GMT -6
I ran into no less than 4 other trappers in the small area I was trapping in NM this year there was one other trapper farming his cats and another that said he was. But most off the guys wre trapping on the road or close to it. You had to get well off the beatin path to find sign and then wait. I seen more trappers out there than I ever would in 2 years in Mo. Bad thing is out there even though they had a 24 hr check one was checking once a week. Even after the warden left his it was still a week before the guy came back.
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Post by bobwendt on Feb 12, 2008 17:24:32 GMT -6
IT IS AGGRAVATING TO HAVE TO COMPETE AGAINST CHEATERS. IT REFLECTS DIRECTLY ON WHATEVER ELSE THEY DO IN LIFE.
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Post by cameron2 on Feb 12, 2008 17:28:06 GMT -6
Its all because of the Democrats. You see . . . Just kidding.
In my area (and I can't speak for anyone else's area) the amount of prey species is almost non-existant. No bunnies, no gamebirds. Last year, one of the areas I trapped had great chukar populations (as did most of the state). In fact, I set up a trail camera on one mountain spring during a week in the summer and the camera captured over 500 pictures of chukar coming to water, along with dozens of rabbits and deer. Other cameras at dozens of other locations yielded similar results.
This year I set the camera up during the same week as last year and got zero pictures of chukar, rabbits and no deer. Again, other cameras in similar areas produced the same zeros. When I trapped around this spring last year, I was seeing coveys of 40-50 birds pretty regularly. This year, I never saw a single bird on the entire mountain range.
I have a friend that is the head biologist at the Nevada Test Site. He supervises thousands of acres of wilderness that never gets hunted or trapped. Late last winter he told me that I would watch the bobcat/coyote/fox populations crash in the next two years. I laughed at him, because I knew we were watching a record bobcat harvest develop across the western United States.
But these guys at the Test Site set thousands of small mammal traps and keep zillions of records about all kinds of stuff, but the short answer was that he told me the prey species at the end of last winter had crashed, and that predator populations would soon follow.
So one answer seems to be the prey base has crashed . . . for whatever reason. Cyclical? Moisture? Weather? Global warming? UFO's? Globlism? Who knows?
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Post by bobwendt on Feb 12, 2008 17:54:27 GMT -6
I caught many many fat bellied like a tom dry females that either never bred last spring or lost all their kittens early. fat and good fur, but no babies and no teeties. that`s a scary insight into next years numbers. I think we might see a 10% harvest next year in my area I trap. I mean they were just not there.
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Post by romans117 on Feb 12, 2008 18:06:07 GMT -6
I caught many many fat bellied like a tom dry females that either never bred last spring or lost all their kittens early. fat and good fur, but no babies and no teeties. that`s a scary insight into next years numbers. I think we might see a 10% harvest next year in my area I trap. I mean they were just not there. X2
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 12, 2008 18:23:30 GMT -6
When you have less prey base and more coyotes your cat numbers do suffer, have less coyotes and decent rabbitts and you gain in cat reproduction! I have tagged more cats this year than any in the past, we have low coyote numbers benefitting the cats and decent jack and cotton tail numbers, we have been on a down turn of coyotes for the last 4 years and the prey base has been good making cat reproducrion take off as less compition. Out cat harvest is not off but increasing, you have more people after them due to price and the word spreads meaning not really less cats just less cats per trapper as you have more after them.
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Post by cameron2 on Feb 12, 2008 18:28:27 GMT -6
Interesting you bring up coyotes. This year there has been an abundance of coyotes, it seems. I've caught twice what I caught last year (although I try NOT to catch them, and my sampling is small, so it may just be coincidence). However, this year I lost 38 gray fox to coyotes. Every year I lose between 8 and 10 grays to coyotes. My assumption is that with the lack of prey species, the coyotes are switching to any available food source before they crash as well.
In my example of the trail cameras on the springs from last year, I only got pictures of coyotes at one spring. This year I got multiple pictures of coyotes at all the springs I surveyed. It seemed they were everywhere. All the coyotes I've caught this year have been lean and hungry. The coyote I caught today was in an exposed trap walk through set, yet the coyote was a real old coyote . . . teeth worn waaaayyyy down. It just seems to me that they are desperate for food.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Feb 12, 2008 21:20:15 GMT -6
Well I almost missed this thread as I thought it was over last month till Tracy clued me in.
The Ely fur sale is a hit or miss thing, there have been years that it was a pretty big sale as it was close to the East and South parts of the state.
Ten years ago or so when prices were down we closed it down and just had the Fallon sale for a few years. This got everybody coming to Fallon for a couple of reasons. One is that it was near the end of cat season so a guy could bring his whole catch. The other reason is that it kind of got to be a rendevous where old friends that live long distances can get together and tell stories and visit.
Last year we had one of the biggest sales we ever had due to several factors. One was lots of cats due to several wet winters and outstanding prey base populations. Two was high prices the year before. Three was lots of out of state cats being sent over to try for the higher prices we usually get.
This year it remains to be seen what happens but I wouldn't be surprised to see it 50% of last year for a couple of reasons. One is that last years prices were 1/2 that of the year before. That alone usually takes the harvest back 30-50% and has happened many times over the years.
The other reason is undoubtably biological in my mind. There were very few Chukars this year and rabbits seem to be way down. We had a horrible drought last year, I think I saw rain once between Feb, and October last year and that was a slight drizzle.
This desert can be a boom and bust scenario for lots of wildlife.
I trapped in December and caught mostly big hog fat toms, the few females I caught hadn't nursed, and only one young cat.
I've caught 6 cats this week and 3 were young cats, every one of them is starving, skinny, white meat. The two big toms had lost a lot of fat. You could tell that it had been there earlier like the other ones.
I agree, I think it will be slim pickings for a year or two as the will have to rebound. The positive side of that is we have had an outstanding water year this winter which should cause the desert to bloom again.
If the water continues we should see a rebound in a year or two.
Joel
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Post by flatlander (Jeff Yancy) on Feb 12, 2008 21:26:30 GMT -6
I agree! I will not trap Cats next year, I'll just be killing Salmon on the Sacramento River!
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Post by motrapperjohn on Feb 12, 2008 22:25:10 GMT -6
most guys I talked to were tring their hardest not to catch coyotes, just going for the cats, and thats not good for the population, Like Bob said greed!
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Feb 12, 2008 23:51:23 GMT -6
Yep we're greedy us non coyote trappers.
Joel
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Post by trappnman on Feb 13, 2008 8:00:34 GMT -6
interesting thread.....
Cameron- my thought is- were there more coyotes, or were the coyotes moving more?
Am I correct in assuming that the areas you are talking about, have only 1, perhaps 2 prey basis?
One thing I noticed from last year to this when I trapped west, was the difference in the rabbits. In WY, I'd see hundreds and hundreds of rabbits i na day- literally, both jacks and cototntails.
This year in KS, I never bumped a 1 drving through two tracks and grass.
on another track- the drought this year, wouldn't have anything to do with cats not having kittens this year would it- or do they have some self absorbing method on the embryos during tough times?
how often do coyotes kill cats?
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Post by FWS on Feb 13, 2008 8:57:46 GMT -6
You might be outta luck on that endeavor, it's looking like they're gonna shut down the fishery.
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Post by SteveCraig on Feb 13, 2008 9:19:13 GMT -6
Coyotes effect bobcat populations. More so than most here think. Bobcat populations were pretty low and pretty stable in their numbers for many year here. Then in 2001 parvo literally wiped out the grey and coyote population. In the spring of 2002, i could not find a coyote track at the water holes here. In fact I saw more lion tracks than coyote. By 2003 we had a literal bobcat explosion. they were everywhere. Coupled also with a rising cottontail population equals GREAT bobcat populations. Coyote numbers are back now as are the grey fox. The rabbit cycle crashed this winter. Look for a very huge change in bobcats population next year. Coyote do effect bobcat populations. You want to catch coyotes in late Jan and Feb, you have to "bobcat" trap your coyotes here. They are all over what is normally bobcat habitat this time of year. They can and do put extreme pressure on bobcats.
Another critter that affects them is lions. Lions kill and eat every bobcat they come across. You will find only a pile of hair, maybe a foot and usually a jaw bone in a kill site. They eat them and they eat alot of them. I have found about as many bobcat kills as i do deer kills. Too many lions here and i will bet in Nevada too. Just not enough being killed. Our only refuge is we have the Mogollion Rim running clear across this state. It will keep us in cats for about forever. Mel Hershberger called the Rim "cat factories". And he was exactly right. It just takes awhile for them to fill in is all. Plus with the huge lion populations we have here, that fill in might take a little longer than it used to!
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Post by Billy Y on Feb 13, 2008 9:31:17 GMT -6
I think the killing frost we got back in May last year and the drougt we had the year before have made our prey species number go down. While my cat numbers for this yuear are up my coon and coyote numbers are way down.
The drop in rabbit pop for me has been noticable since the fall.
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Post by coyotewhisperer on Feb 13, 2008 17:28:41 GMT -6
I know you weren't seeing them Steve but here in my area the rabbits are thick. I see close to a hundred everyday in the headlights of the wheeler early in the morning.
Had we gotten a good snow while you were here you would have seen all the rabbit sign.
Bob you already sent every swinging dick to trap KS what are you trying to do get me a limit now whith these comments ;D
I'd say with you hitting that area with essentially the same numbers every year for how many years? that your fine.....next year will tell I guess. But your connecting habitat i can't believe that you'd be hard pressed to do a dozen.
Jeff
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Post by rionueces on Feb 13, 2008 19:04:59 GMT -6
Predator populations are good here this year due to the tremendous amount of rain in 2007. However, there has been no significant amount of rain since last Sept., and it is getting really dry. Huge areas of dead tall grass have provided good cover for rats, rabbits and fawns.
Bobcat populations are up on the ranches where we have hammered the coyotes. Coyotes eat the hell out of their kittens. I can really tell the difference on places where the coyotes are thick....
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Post by JWarren on Feb 14, 2008 6:53:06 GMT -6
two or three years ago remeber all the guys saying the cats can never be harmed, the big mountain ranges will give them up forever, all the cats are caught by roads so the population will never be hurt, etc.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 14, 2008 7:42:33 GMT -6
Is it the chickens coming home to roost bob or is it the boom/bust cycle that is the desert.
bob how many cats were caught in Kansas 10 15 years ago?
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Post by JWarren on Feb 14, 2008 7:44:15 GMT -6
Bob, I thought you were one of the guys who saying they couldn't be hurt? I think anyone who hammers on skeleton level populations knowingly is greed driven and not much of a naturalist. I don't know why your dissing on the residents with nice catches either. These are the guys who've been doing it for years and rotating areas in order to maintain populations so they can keep catching cats for decades. Sure the nonresidents who come in and set for a week or two aren't getting them all every time but if about 4 or 5 guys do it over the season you have a problem. i also think the videos and internet have taught the people from back east how to catch cats so they can take them out just as good as the locals now.
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