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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 29, 2007 6:24:06 GMT -6
Gut I could have fenced the flat set off but it was in a place w/o any high brush to gather up and I didn't feel like sawing the tree up. Also it was on a South facing hillside and the way things were set up I just felt like making a buried open set.
Looking at some of my pictures it's hard to see the whole picture becasue you can't see the lay of the land and the camera angle distorts things a bit.
By the way I don't hold myself up as the king of the cat trappers by any means, I just post a lot on the subject because it interests me.
I can be critical of other guys sets but when I look at these pics there are things I would criticize about mine.lol!!
Like Tom Krause says you can't argue with an animal in the truck. Whatever works for you.
Joel
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Post by robertw on Dec 29, 2007 8:47:55 GMT -6
JoelBlakslee;"We manage the resource by harvesting the kittens and females."
I don't even know how to respond to that statement. That is one the craziest things I have ever heard. Managing the resource includes managing the ENTIRE resource, you can not manage bobcats (unless your goal is to keep them beat down!) with out managing the coyotes in the same enviornment.
Why would you kill a $50-75 kitten that was un-harmed when it could be worth over $300 a year later? Why kill a breeding a female that is raising you a litter every year and that you could take 3-5 high dollar toms off of during the rut?
Let me know when you start catching 100 cats a season and 75 or more of them are toms. With a managment plan like you have described most trappers would never catch over 25-30 total bobcats a year.
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Post by ColdSteel on Dec 29, 2007 9:19:25 GMT -6
Nice looking sets and with all that rocky ground is that why you boys don't use many dirtholes.I don't put up near the numbers some of you do but I don't think I miss many cats either.I almost always use a big flashy dirthole with good guiding and feathers scatterd around the hole and a ball of rabbit fur in the hole.I look for more by setting on a track more than anything .I feel like with my dirthole it also increases the chance of fox and coyote which use to be worth more until the live market fell.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 29, 2007 9:21:35 GMT -6
managing a resource for money, is only managing one small, small factor (that is important only to harvestors) and not managing the entire resource or system.
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Post by redeagle on Dec 29, 2007 11:39:23 GMT -6
I really appreciate all of the info here, and the pics are worth volumes of text. Excellent. This morning, I upgraded all of my guides at my sets, as per the pics.
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Post by JWarren on Dec 29, 2007 11:52:52 GMT -6
managing a resource for money, is only managing one small, small factor (that is important only to harvestors) and not managing the entire resource or system. thats what I was thinking, furthermore in WY were everyone in the country apparently now traps cats you are going to have 75 guys shooting for every kitten you let loose
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Post by FWS on Dec 29, 2007 15:59:43 GMT -6
RW, I think what Joel is reffering to is that by harvesting a cross section of age and sex classes it provides the biological data that demonstrates the overall health of the population.
CA, NV and AZ all have very healthy cat numbers and taking kittens and females won't affect the population simply due to the habitat available and the inability to access most of it.
Think in the concept of refugia, innacessible areas that serve as a reservoir of animals that disperse to the accessible areas.
Joel and the Western NV boys benefit hugely from the 900 miles of border they share with CA. 90% of which is superb cat habitat on the CA side, I don't even feel sorry for them getting a spillover of our mt. lions with all the bobcats dispersing from CA to NV.
The area I'm trapping right now is a perfect example of refugia, I can trap the ridgelines but not the other 99.9% of the habitat because there's no access. The ridgeline road is the ONLY road through this area. Kinda like being able to fish the ocean but only from the beach.
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Post by FWS on Dec 29, 2007 16:03:25 GMT -6
I think that's habitat specific.
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Post by coloradocat on Dec 29, 2007 21:34:22 GMT -6
Oh this is a touchy subject. I better just keep my mouth shut!!!!!!
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 29, 2007 23:16:30 GMT -6
There is biological management and bio/political management. What FWS says is accurate.
I'm far more concerned about being able to defend our management plan against a lawsuit than I am worried about releasing some segments of the population.
Our data is going on 30 years now and it seems that we are doing well with the way we are doing it.
Who cares about females and kittens if they take your season away?
Back in the ESSA days there were a lot of states that had to put something together in a hurry.
I would be interested to see what states that have limits show for M/F ratios and kitten/adult ratios.
I would suspect that a high M/F ratio would justify lifting limits or lengthening seasons while a low kitten/adult ratio would do just the opposite.
Either way it's really useless information if guys are tossing back those segments in significant numbers.
Mark my words one of these days another state will get sued like we did in 85 and I'm predicting a tough go of it.
I would recommend any of you that live in states that aren't pulling teeth and gathering data to go have a meeting with your F&G and get started.
Maybe I'm paranoid but I've been there and done that in Court, Legislature, and Wildlife Commission many times.
Joel
Joel
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 29, 2007 23:33:55 GMT -6
I do believe that killing coyotes benefits everything. Where I'm at it gets helicoptered to death. I think that may be why that fox I caught made it through.
I saw several coyote tracks in the snow sneaking around my cat sets today. The thought crossed my mind to set some snares just to get em out of the ecosystem.
Joel
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Post by robertw on Dec 30, 2007 10:58:54 GMT -6
Joel, Yes, you should remove those coyotes before you feed them a bobcat..I always laugh at guys talking about how they do everything they can to avoid catching coyotes then complain when the coyote eats or destroys the bobcats they caught...
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Post by ColdSteel on Dec 30, 2007 11:05:41 GMT -6
You guys are telling me something.I have never had a cat ripped to pieces but I do have about 4 to 6 fox a year destroyed but I haven't got a good number of coyotes around me yet either.ALways figured unless a pack of yotes came through a cat could hold his own even in a trap one on one verses a yote maybe I am wrong.
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Post by robertw on Dec 30, 2007 11:15:37 GMT -6
Coldsteel, I think it depends on the individual bobcat. Those large older toms are pretty tough...but you put both front feet in a trap and he doesn't last long.
The few times that I have had bobcats killed in traps about half the time it was single coyote.
Ironically I do catch 6-10 bobcat & coyote doubles each year and some how I just don't believe the coyote was caught first very often then the bobcat was caught.
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Post by ColdSteel on Dec 30, 2007 11:28:05 GMT -6
I had my first year live marketing this year in the fall when I had to release cats.I only caught 8 but 5 were big toms and they were way more aggresive than the coyotes I handle.Two of those cats were caught by the hind foot and because the ground was so hard then my cables were not as deep in the ground as they normally are kinda made things exciting not only had to worry about the head but those 4 feet .Must admit though I was new at this bobcat release .I am sure lots on here have it down to a science
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 30, 2007 13:44:25 GMT -6
I don't know that I've ever had a cat killed by a coyote. Lions have done it several times and I've had grey fox killed by bobcats.
I've had other coyotes kill trapped coyotes a bunch of times.
One year I caught a lion in a snare that was running with 4 other lions. I believe they killed it while it was thrashing around but they sat right down and ate the SOB on the spot.
All that was left was the head, guts, feet, and tail. They even ate one of the ears off.
All there in the snow to see what happened.
A lot of people don't think lions run in groups but I've seen it many times. Usually females and kittens but sometimes I think it's pride behavior.
Joel
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Post by robertw on Dec 30, 2007 20:02:48 GMT -6
I do not know what is normal behavior for lions but...I did see three adult lions this fall in one bunch. The locals tell me this not an unusual thing.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Dec 30, 2007 23:49:17 GMT -6
There is a picture from Eastern NV of 9 lions in one tree. It's not doctored either.
I remember a story about a Govt. lion hunter that rode down to the ranch and asked the rancher to come up and help because he had 7 lions in a tree. The rancher (who I know well), said how do you know they'll still be there when we go back? The hunter said don't worry they'll be there.
Joel
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cmbb
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 34
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Post by cmbb on Dec 31, 2007 17:46:54 GMT -6
Perusing a few of the last posts. I wonder why Nevada does not allow nonresidents to trap cats? If there are large areas or "refugias" where little or no access, IE trapping, can take place. Than it would make little difference on the amount of fur harvested, other than each residents trappers catch would be diluted by the competition. Assuming equal abilities. If anything, with more nonresidents it should add up to more coyotes caught which equates to more "other" furbearers etc. Assuming I followed the logic in the posts correctly.
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Post by coloradocat on Dec 31, 2007 20:29:12 GMT -6
Everyone still wants a piece of that NV pie,lol.
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