Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
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Post by Rod17 on Aug 15, 2007 16:37:27 GMT -6
Every K9 trapping book, video, DVD etc always says there should be the slightest depression in the dirt over the pan.
Has anyone ever tested this notion? I mean really scrutinized how far from level that the dirt over the pan matters?
I mean, afterall, coyotes stand on the edge of plow marks in the fields, they stand on the top of varmint mounds to look down holes etc. No burrowing critter in the world smooths out the dirt in front of its hole. Yet most K9 "methods" show these pristine looking dirt patterns.
Many older books even show "mound sets" were a call lure or bait is placed some distance above ground and a trap is set on the top of a nearby mound (either natural or constructed for said purpose).
Now, I understand the principle of guiding the paw to where you want it, so obvisouly any elevation can't be too obtrusive -- but I wonder-- is the coytoe really as particular about where it places its foot as we are led to believe?
thanks
Randy
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 15, 2007 16:59:14 GMT -6
you never heard that in any of my videos, and I think it`s all foo-fa-rah too. not saying it hurts, well, maybe does if it takes even a few extra seconds at the set. I try to get my patterns relatively flat, but I never worried about a depression over the trap, ever. in answer to your question, a big NO. if the stuff down the hole is the right dope he`ll stay and keep dinking around till he gets caught. they`ll stick their head 2 feet up a dead cows ate out arse to eat, so I doubt they care too much where they put their feet.
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redcoyote
Skinner...
rain,rain,go away
Posts: 89
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Post by redcoyote on Aug 15, 2007 17:24:52 GMT -6
From what I have seen on my own lines, I dont worry with this type of thing. They seem to put there feet anywhere they feel fit. This is the reason I have gone away from "guiding". I still guide to a point, but as far as placing stones,sticks,rocks,corn cobbs, etc I dont do anymore because the caninines were always stepping on them instead of trap. yep, dont catch them all! lol So now I set with good backing so the animal has to work the set my way until caught with a good lure and urine. I used to do all the depression stuff but I feel it is a waste of time in the big picture.
I also had a couple big dirtpiles on one stop last year (10' higher than surroundings) Dug in a couple big holes...basketball size... midway up pile for eye appeal with dirt mounded outside of hole, so the yotes had to step up to work hole. took several yotes off those piles with that set-up.
in another area, groundhog had started doing some digging and left. caught my eye so I set some traps... the holes were angled down not real steep so placed lure down deep in hole with traps down in foot or so. got to realize, that these were big holes where the roof had collapsed some too and only were maybe three feet deep max. so the yotes had to walk down into opening of hole to be caught and they did.
I wouldnt pile dirt over the pan but I wouldnt worry with the depression size either. make a solid set with good lure and most will have plenty of skinning to do.
fwiw
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 15, 2007 18:23:50 GMT -6
one time my daughter begged to let her set a trap so I just left her with the gear and went roming around. came back in 20 minutes and she is still hamering and etc, so go on another walk about. finally after an hour she finishes. worst set I ever saw. animal had to actually climb up on a hump to get caught. next morning, you guessed it, there he stood.
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Post by romans117 on Aug 15, 2007 19:23:24 GMT -6
one time my daughter begged to let her set a trap so I just left her with the gear and went roming around. came back in 20 minutes and she is still hamering and etc, so go on another walk about. finally after an hour she finishes. worst set I ever saw. animal had to actually climb up on a hump to get caught. next morning, you guessed it, there he stood. Same X 3.
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Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
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Post by Rod17 on Aug 16, 2007 8:07:16 GMT -6
Bob..I have your videos and knew your opinion in advanced..but still really appreciate the feedback. And..I agree with you completely.
I think alot of folks have the notion that K9s tip-toe up to their sets (sometimes standing on only 2 feet - LOL) sneak around, pee and leave. Cant image how a critter that lives day to day in sage, scrub oak, plowed fieldds, mud, etc etc - all kinds of terrain, would even notice a tiny depression - or elevation for that matter, at the set. His attention is focused on the lure/bait/scent combo's.
other opinions welcome
thanks
Randy
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Post by Lone trapper on Aug 16, 2007 21:33:58 GMT -6
Have you found this any different for cats? I generally like to have a slight depression over the pan and do think, at least for cats that it does help. If nothing else it makes it harder for them to pull their feet out as quickly i.e. more weight on pan. LT
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Post by wheelie on Aug 17, 2007 6:38:18 GMT -6
Yep a depression is where they step.....my pan is always in the lowest position in the set constuction area.....
Yes a coyote will crawl up a cows buthole, but the coyote knows that it is a COW.....
When dealing with human odor at a set, and curiousity smells down a hole I feel a yote is more cautious and when it wants to "peak" down a hole and get a looksee it isn't going to "Step Up" to look down.....
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Post by wheelie on Aug 17, 2007 6:45:25 GMT -6
"it isn't going to "Step Up" to look down" with a properly angled D-hole
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 17, 2007 7:52:28 GMT -6
sure they will wheelie. I intentionally make sets in inclines to get out of the rain problem, and use the uphill to guide them my way to begin with. I try to make mine ( the pattern) just flast, best I can, and if a slight rise or a slight dip, no biggie either way.
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 17, 2007 7:55:36 GMT -6
just a thought, you are walking across a field, you hit a low spot unexpectadly. how does that affect your gate or walking? exactly like expecting a step in the stairs that isn`t there, it sets you right back on your heels fast. we`ve all done the stairs that weren`t there deal, both up and down, and it jerks you for sure. I think animals are the same, they like flat ground given their druthers, not dips or hi spots. in the macro and micro ways. unless hiding or sneaking.
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Post by wheelie on Aug 17, 2007 10:35:53 GMT -6
The coyotes I catch are always sneaking....... ps..there are no hills or inclines in our area....just flat as pancake....just look what happens when it floods, every coyote in the area is up a tree so they don't float away...lol I have watched you make many sets in the sage......you aren't kidding about making it flat all the way across........You said it best (when I was with you) ......"don't matter where the trap is...the stuff I put down the hole is so good that they will work the area till caught" I still like the pan lower than the surrounding area so I'm gonna poke you in the eye
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 17, 2007 11:10:05 GMT -6
and you could count on one hand or less the times we had a track without the canine attached to it. I call it my carpenters delight set, lol, flat as a board!
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Post by robertw on Aug 17, 2007 11:26:40 GMT -6
Bob, I have side with Wheelie (sort of).
Bob;and you could count on one hand or less the times we had a track without the canine attached to it." I don't want to see a single track with out the canine being attached to it. I do use a slight depresion over the trap sometimes but more often I just use what ever is left in the sifter scattered around the set to create the most natural spot for the foot to land on.
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 17, 2007 12:20:27 GMT -6
robert, that director we discussed, I just learned today he no longer is. actually I think wheelie and I experienced only one fox we never caught, a true 1 in 1,000 digger. she would start way back 2-3 feet and scratch till she exposed something, then leave. we caught her hubby and all 6 kids is how I know she was she. we contemplated blind setting her on the way to the set ,as she came nightly like clockwork, but we actualy had such admiration for one of only 3-4 smart reds I`d seen out of maybe ~14,000 that we left her on purpose. kind of makes me feel good even now. she probably just got arial gunned that winter, but at least I didn`t do it.
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Post by scott kimball on Aug 17, 2007 14:43:34 GMT -6
anyone who gets to spend time with tim julian is going to have the time of their life he has the dryist sence of hummer.and one great guy to be around.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 17, 2007 15:52:03 GMT -6
It matters where the set is on level ground I make all things level, but I do want the pan the lowest point of level, if a set is in a slight depression compaired to surrounding then the lowest point in that situation will be the pan.
The majority of coyotes I don't think it matters, but for some it does and I'm after not only the majority but also those "some". I also like guiding and use it alot just up's the % and good pad catches, like anything else you can't catch a coyotes with a tall backing etc,etc.
I catch plenty with a dirthole and a big yucca as the backing, the thing I do is trim the poky's back that are in direct relation to the hole, that allows them to step up and investigate nicely and the surronding plant material guides them right to the pan.
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 17, 2007 16:02:25 GMT -6
one thing I`ve found about those yuccas, you can`t use the sharp side of your o`g hammer to whack them back too good. and after a catch they take a lickin` and keep on ticken`. tuff somebees.
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Post by Lone trapper on Aug 17, 2007 20:32:41 GMT -6
That brings back to mind a time when I was setting up a yucca for a cat and and didn't catch anything for about a week. Caught a cat and was excited about the next check to see if a second would get caught there. After a couple more checks I caught a big ol' coyote in it. I like to a' thought a bomb was set off their. The place was completely destroyed and the yucca was beat to the ground. I couldn't believe it, I haven't had another one blow a set apart like that since.... LT
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 18, 2007 5:32:03 GMT -6
I`ve had a coyote crater a set like that and there in the middle is this frayed up poor yucca, but there it stands ,defiant. I kinda feel that way lately.
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