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Post by billmeyerhoff on Aug 25, 2007 17:36:52 GMT -6
Why does the bottom edge set work and do you consider current when making the set?
Thanks in advance for your response.
Bill
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Post by trappnman on Aug 25, 2007 19:05:51 GMT -6
the bottom edge set works because both mink and rats, and beaver also for that matter, often follow the bank edge along the bottom. Most figure mink are hunting while doing so.
I don't consider current direction, I look for location. now current speed.... I don't but would be curious as to others finds. Current would be less on the bottom.
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Post by Kyle on Aug 25, 2007 20:09:14 GMT -6
I can't wait for Seldom's reply to this...
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Post by mountainman on Aug 25, 2007 23:58:46 GMT -6
Yeah, me too Kyle. I want to see whats up with this thing and hear what Seldom has to say about it too.
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Post by seldom on Aug 26, 2007 7:00:49 GMT -6
LOL! Ok you two, you dragged me out from under my rock. Yup. I'm one that believes that. Yes, I agree and by looking for location doesn't mean that every protrusion you find sticking out away from the bank is a good BE location. IMO and from my experiences, there has to be a reason WHY the mink chose that particular spot to be in the water and swimming around a protrusion at it's bottom edge. I don't believe for a minute that mink are out-of-hand swimming around everything that's sticking out from the bank.
There may be a multitude of reasons WHY mink choose a particular location to swim the bottom edge of something but here are two that I've come to rely on. 1. As has been discussed previously, good set locations are found where there is, or thought to be, prey for the mink to catch. Could be the nooks and crannies around pilings (crayfish, minnows, etc.), entrances to old beaver bank dens (fish, rats, etc.), hammocks just below beaver dams where the small runs come into the main (minnows). Mink know that most protrusions create an eddy with some sort of adjacent undercut, inside corner on both sides and that's where the minnows and chubs hold. It seems that the very best bottom edge locations of this sort will have a sharp inside corner similar to a piling where prey hides. A bottom edge location coming off a bank with a sharp outside corner that's not under a bridge such as a board on edge, or large rock with a real corner all seem to have prey on one or both sides
2. A surface/bank condition that forces a mink to enter the water (excluding brides). By force, I mean the mink finds it easier and possibly safer to enter the water and travel the bottom edge around the object rather then climb over or swim around on the surface. Current could be a consideration at this type of location. Usually a sluffed-off bank, a solid root ball, etc. will have a current cut groove as well as a defined inside corner especially if the obstruction is quite solid subsurface and may or may not form an eddy with prey.
It's easy enough to set every protrusion you find and not think about, or care WHY you will catch a mink in one BE and not the rest, just that you caught the mink. That's OK for some but I want to know WHY. Learning HOW is easy, it's understanding the WHY that can be tough!
As for rats, I think it' does have to do with current but IMO you can't compare a rat's reason for being caught in a BE with a mink.
Let me point out that my territory doesn't have the nice trout-type water many have. My territory is part farmland ditches and slow-moving, silty creeks. The rivers are similar except more clay and more sterile. I've spent quite a bit of time in PA and some time in WI & MN, those waters are a lonnnnng way from representing my water. So the principle of the BE is what were talking about, not necessarily like-for-like when it comes to exact BE set locations.
These are just my findings derived from my personal experineces and observations. They may or may not coincide with other folks findings or thoughts.
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Post by billmeyerhoff on Aug 26, 2007 7:59:27 GMT -6
Seldom, thanks for the detailed response.
I only started using the bottom edge set last year in an attempt to catch otter when no sign was present. I trap in a mountainous area with fast flowing freestone streams and small rivers I approached the set as that of a travel way because in areas of heavy current the bottom edge offers the most relief from that current. I looked for points in those areas of heavy current and experienced moderate success catching otter, beaver, and muskrats in fully submerged 330’s.
North Carolina offers a 72 hour check on fully submerged conibears and I am considering setting more traps this year targeting mink. I’ve seen a heck of a lot more mink on the banks than I’ve seen in the water and theorized that mink are more apt to be on the bank in these areas of heavy current and therefore the same type of set may not work for mink that works for the other three.
I also want to know why a set works and that was the reason for my questions. Once again, thank you for your post and I’m hoping to utilize your thoughts on this set down the line.
Bill
PS: If anyone has any other good sets that use fully submerged conibears I'd be interested in hearing about them.
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Post by mountainman on Aug 26, 2007 16:31:13 GMT -6
Seldom. Thanks for the very good response.
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Post by Kyle on Aug 26, 2007 17:03:30 GMT -6
Seldom. Thanks for the very good response. Sorry to you on the spot with it though. I always look forward to hearing what you have to say. Great post Seldom. I knew you had it in ya...
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Post by billmeyerhoff on Aug 27, 2007 4:50:09 GMT -6
mountainman, sure wish you'd chime in, I watched your mink demo at the NC Spring Fling and would like to hear your opinion of this set in these mountain waters.
thanks for giving that demo, really enjoyed it.
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Post by BK on Aug 27, 2007 6:24:38 GMT -6
There are a number of things that cause mink hunt underwater,.......... that in turn makes the BE set work. Unless you understand them you may not think much of the set.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2007 7:26:04 GMT -6
there are a number of things that make mink hunt underwater....
food?
and lets see....food?
I'd be real interested in your thoughts as to other reasons mink hunt underwater.
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Post by HappyPlumber on Aug 27, 2007 8:11:54 GMT -6
I believe what he meant was that there are certain weather conditions that cause "food" to be on the banks of a stream or in the woods, fields ect. Bottom edge sets work best when it rains, a storm is coming in, when the snow is deep, when there are predators on shore or in the air. Bottom edge sets are good for a lot of reasons. HP
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Post by Steve Gappa on Aug 27, 2007 8:20:39 GMT -6
I took that as a given HP- the mink, like most predators I'd imagine, hunt whats easiest first.
but the bottom line, is they hunt underwater for food.
What is far more important, and perhaps what bk meant- is HOW they hunt underwater.
I'd strongly disagree with you in rising water forcing mink underwater- I think that the exact opposite is true. Rising water flushes out many small critters living on the edge, so I've found in rising/flood waters, dryland 110s produce much better than water sets.
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Post by HappyPlumber on Aug 27, 2007 8:48:39 GMT -6
You're right about the high water, but in the beginning of the mink season the males are all over the place because there is game all over the place. Later in the season when the weather gets bad and food gets scarce on land is when they feed more in the water. HP
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2007 9:22:33 GMT -6
It all depends on whats surrounding that water. I agree that snow, freezing pushes mink away from depeleted food sources, to available food sources.
So the mink are at the water, but they still concentrate on whats most available. and more importantly, even hunting underwater, they need to be out of the water to eat.
I'm not for a minute saying BE sets aren't good sets, but I don't see where they outproduce other sets, even during bitter cold.
I've often asked how effective BE sets are in fully frozen streams- and have never gotten an answer. Because if they work in entirely ice locked streams (aka beaver), you got something
But if there is open water to allow access, you have more than one option.
I've seen a fair amount of mink in the off season working streams, and never have I seen them work underwater. I take this to mean that underwater isn't a preferred hunting mode. r
Most of our creeks here have grassy banks- full of shrews mice and what I all "woods rats" (not sure what they are) and those creeks are what draw the mink.
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Post by BK on Aug 27, 2007 11:30:33 GMT -6
I gotta wounder Steve what it would take for you to say you saw a mink "working under water",........ would you hope to see him like swim past your feet? (I know that remark made you happy) But hey, I see all the time where they enter and leave the water and I know you do too. And yes lots of times while fishing and what not I've watched as they entered the water and came out with fish or frogs, they might run up in the grass or under something to eat it, but they sure as hell came out of the water with it. I think we all tend to rely on the evidence of tracks too much.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2007 11:51:17 GMT -6
what would make me say I've watched a mink swim into the water, disappear and either come up somewhere else or be gone?
simple- actually seeing one. You want me to make stuff up?
But me never seeing one, doesn't mean it doesn't happen but of course it does. But my observations show me this- the point I was trying to make- those mink hunted what was easiest, first.
you missed my point 100%- the point wasn't do mink work deep water, but when. And why.
of course mink enter and go into the water but the remark was made in the context of where they would hunt first- and my point was if there was plenty of stream side places for food, I doubt (and personally haven't seen it in the mink I've watched) the mink would waste the energy fighting the water.
the mink I see, on trout streams- work the edges moreso than INTO deeper water- because the don't NEED to hunt that hard.
they wil ltake the easy food first.
I see you didn't answer my question once again-
Do you feel that bottom edge sets work in water that is 100% froze solid with no open water acesss?
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Post by lumberjack on Aug 27, 2007 12:02:38 GMT -6
I remember a few books and articles (cant remember the authors) back in the 70s saying " mink prefer not to get their feet wet"......Yea, right.
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Post by mountainman on Aug 27, 2007 12:11:42 GMT -6
Thank you Bill, I really enjoyed being there with you and everyone that made it to the Fling. I havent made any 110 BE sets for mink. I tried one time with a foothold where I knew a mink was working under the edge of a hollow at the bottom of the wooden retaining wall of a bridge, but apparently my partner was picking up pretty fast on the blind foothold sets and caught 3 mink in a set upstream from me so I believe he may have got that one. I remember places where something left traces of sign working the bottom edge in the creek banks and it didn't look like something a rat would do. I believe we can be successful with this set in our area. I'll try to learn all I can and give it a go. If you would like to we could compare notes as we get going on this. I really like the idea of using the 72 hour check and especially so with our problems with road access in NC. Claudie Taylor sure got me to thinking a lot more about using more underwater beaver and otter size bodygrips.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2007 12:41:15 GMT -6
its a far cry from never getting their feet wet, and saying they prefer hunting the easiest food.
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