Blood lines.....

[foxcatcher1]

I have a friend that claims to be part Mississippi Leg Houng. Though I can't find what line of leg hound he is, I can verify he does have several qualities of the breed.


Speaking of characteristics, I have put some thought into my own. I have come up with the theory that I have to have some Walker in me. I can tree a Beaver like no one else!!!!!!!



Don

[trappnman]

on a serious note...LOL- bloodlines are something most don't understand.

don't show me a 10 generation pedigree- that means nothing- show me his grandparents- I'd rather a hound out of 4 good grandparents, than bad grandparents and 2 good parents.

another note on bloodlines- Geo Nixon, the greatest beagle breeder ever insofar as Fd Chs produced, setting a bloodline, etc- kept records on aLL his bitches- and by far, by far- the #1 litter of a bitch was the best as far as producing champions- the quality declined as she got older-

so- don't waste that first breeding

[tomcat3006]

I alwayse said a dog takes after it's grandparents more than it's parents. Has just alwayse been my thoughts.

[romans117]

Actually genetically speaking a pup gets 25 percent of their make up from the sire and dam and then the remaining 75 percent is all the other dogs in the line. The third generation with four dogs is 12.5% etc... The first three generations are the key in my book, the second most important to me is the foundation males and females in the line and the number of times those foundation dogs are present in a five generation pedigree. That is why line breeding produces more consistency in regards to favorable and unfavorable traits. The genetic research was all the rage in the early 90's.

Let the blood letting begin.

[trappnman]

line breeding for sure is the way to go- out crossing seldom produces the best of both, and unless looking for something lacking (mouth, size, etc) outcrosses aren't my thought on how to go.

Im a fan of close line breeding, some would call it inbreeding. uncle to niece, mother to son, etc. But... I should say BUT. you need to know what you are dong, and you need to cull. Only by close breeding, can you intensify a line. I had 6 generations of close breeding, and had hounds set in their traits. One regret I have on beagling is not keeping that line going.

for you old beaglers- I loved those Pearson Creeks- had the last son of Carson, and loved Stub breeding and had some close Piper breeding- who might have been the best producer of all. Get the right cross with Limbo, and oy uhave oyurself some rabbit dogs.

Beware of flukes- those throwbacks that are better than their parents and grandparents- they won't breed true.

no let the bloodbath begin...

[Timber]

What are your thoughts on littermates bred together? I always thought this was too close but?.....

Tim

[trappnman]

some of the absolute best hounds in the world, were from just such crosses. And the top producing beagles of all time- were from brother/sister matings.

the rap inbreeding gets, is that msot people don;'t understand it, and most won't cull.

Line breeding sets or intensifys traits.

Inbreeding does this more.

Its the quickest way to get to what you want- but understand it intensifies bad traits as well as good.

For example, 2 tight mouth littermates you are going to have a very high % of tight mouthed pups.

and breeding extemes doesn't give you a happy medium- take a mouth thats a little too loose, and a tight mouthed one- the pups tend to be one or the other, not in the middle like you might think.

If the littermates are what you want- go for it.

[garman]

What I found is line breeding works if people know about the LINE, (just like stated earlier) and look and hunt the line themselves, and know what the line throws for pups. But it also appeared to me that lines sometime intensify the traits so much it becomes an issue. That is an outsiders perspective not a breeders perspective. I ran line bred Black and Tans that were excellent dogs but sometimes there traits and sometimes dogs out of that line became so intense in a trait that it hurt them.

[romans117]

I have never had a positive result from inbreeding. Yes the desired traits are intensified and the same with the bad, as stated. But where do you go from there on a bloodline. I know several situations in which inbreeding led to earlier than normal deaths. I personally have not seen an inbred dog that did not have bowed legs, over or under bits, or a screw loose. But had great noses, great run, exceptional style. Inbreeding I think limits you further down the line. To much of the similar blood brings everything forward and most times it was the unfavorable. I have bred dogs from the same sire and different dams and been ok with that. Although the bites were pretty close to being a culling type situation. I have bred grandfather to granddaughter but the breeding before the granddaughter had a cross. I was very very pleased with the result of the breeding. I have a line I started in 96 that I know without doubt the type of dogs I will throw.

I could never in conscious breed litter mates or get to the dam or sire. Makes me sick to cull puppies or grown dogs for that matter.

[romans117]

Jul 8, 2008 17:12:52 GMT -6 @romans117 said:

Actually genetically speaking a pup gets 25 percent of their make up from the sire and dam and then the remaining 75 percent is all the other dogs in the line. The third generation with four dogs is 12.5% etc... The first three generations are the key in my book, the second most important to me is the foundation males and females in the line and the number of times those foundation dogs are present in a five generation pedigree. That is why line breeding produces more consistency in regards to favorable and unfavorable traits. The genetic research was all the rage in the early 90's.

Let the blood letting begin.

Sire and Dam 25%
Grand Sires and Dams 12.5%
Grand Grand Sires and Dams 6.25%
GGG Sires and Dams 3.125%
GGGG Sires and Dams 1.5625%

With line breeding similar dogs or if a particular dog is present more than once the percentage for that dog will be higher regardless of where in the pedigree the dog is.

[trappnman]

roman- I'll have ot get back on this, have to head out now... trust me- inbreeding works- and works very well. Cull doesn't have to mean kill- cull means not breeding. Yo udon't get monsters or stuff like that-

the man that pioneered this in beagling- did the same for decades with dairy cows- and cows are very much inbred.

yes- there are some "dangers"- but no more than any other breedings-

more later

[trappnman]

the key to inbreeding, or for those that don't like that term, call it close line breeding- is that you need to understand the traits fo that family line very well. I was privilaged to have as mentors a couple of the top guys in the US- and I got to see hundreds of pups run out of the bloodlines.

the hardest thing to breed for in a hound is straight away style and good check work. By careful inbreeding and line breeding, you can set those traits a little harder- and you develop a style that is distinctly "your" bloodlines.

dogs that don't meet your standards- Sell them, or give away as pets and hunting dogs w/o papers- if you are gong to breed hounds, than you have to remove what doesn't measure up, from your breeding plans.

[rockcreekcurs]

Most people's definitions go something like this

Inbreeding: When the tight bred litter didn't work out.

Linebreeding: When the tight bred litter did work out.

[troymcdaniel]

Rockcreek hit the nail on the head there!!!!!!!!!!

[trappnman]

truth to that