The 0.5" group @ 300 yards

[redsnow]

Guy's I'm fairly new here, but that's hard to believe. Over on the .243 thread someone mentioned shootin a group 0.5" at 300 yards, (outta the box) somebody already called BS, so I won't. From the bench on a good day, I've fired a couple "good groups", but nothing close to 0.5" at 300. Whatcha think???

[lb]

I have done it at 200, but three hundred yards? That's pretty good shooting; especially out of the box. Don't sell that baby! LB

[Danny Clifton]

I can shoot half inch groups at a thousand yards. Groups of only one bullet. I doubt you can get half inch groups at 300 yards with one of those competition rail guns. Air currents let alone wind will push bullets around more than that.

[Furhvstr]

Shooting one group like that is absolutely possible and I am happy for the guy that did it. Unlikely to come close to it again but it must have been fun.
1 1/16 inch is my best three Rd's at three hundy from a hunting rifle.
Of course aggregate scores is a true measure of a rifles accuracy.

[MadDog]

It can be done. This thread made me dig out some target groups.

I have one group thats 5/8 at 350 another one 7/8 at 350

Of course I'm like everybody else I only keep the good ones.

Mine was shot with an 18 power scope.

Not much for calling but I cant shoot a very good group with a 9 power that don't have an AO on it.

[Rod17]

I am the guy who posted the "0.5" group" thread with my Savage. Sorry you all cant do it.

I placed a much longer post and my thoughts on thread of the original .243 post. Check it out.

Randy

[trappincoyotes39]

That is possible for sure, as there are bench rest 1,000 yard shooters that can shoot amazing groups, it is not like you can say it is 3.5 times further, when you get past 500 yards the magnatude of small groups get's much wider for most as you are talking much more in wind drift and drop each 100 yards makes a much more signifcant differance than that of 100-300 yards for sure!
Schocklung one heck of a group at that distance for sure! If you can keep it at or under an inch consistantly on calm days you have one heck of a rifle for sure!
There are days I can keep it under 1" at 200 yards and others I can not, surely not the gun but conditions and most importantly me! How much coffee and diet coke before shooting and my mood, that is what makes 1,000 yard shooters keep going on the challange to make the right reads on drift,mirage and being consistant shot after shot.

Here is a link on long range shootinghttp://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg01.html

[Rod17]

Heres some more info (in addiiton to what I posted under the original .243 post).

Accuracy and precision doesnt just happen; it takes alot of work and thought.

I have several rifles all capable of sub-MOA at 300 yards and that shouldnt surprise anyone. Most guns can shoot better than the operator. And I have no doubt there are many on here that can shoot better than me. I have no formal rifle training..everything I know and do has been learned from books, internet, the school of hard knocks and lots and lots of trial and error.

Heres how I set up a new rifle. First, you have to have a good scope. My .22-250 has a Burris Signature Select with the Ballistiplex reticle. I buy at least 8-10 boxes of different ammo (different manufacturer, different wts, some moly, some uncoated , etc). I 'll easily put 6-10 boxes of ammo through a new rifle and I keep a little notebook of every shot I take. I usually shoot at least 7-10 shots per group when trying to identify ammo it likes..and does not like. The barrel is cleaned and allowed to cool between all groups. In general, I can usually tell aftr 10 shots whether the gu like a particularly ammo and I am always amazed at how finicky some rifles can be.

Once I find what ammo that a gun likes, I will fine tune my scope to that ammo. I am not satisfied with 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. I have a good mechanical rest, I work hard on breathing, position, check weld etc..all the basics of good shooting. I can typically get a good rifle to shoot a ragged hole at 100 yards..thats 7-10 shots...with all the holes touching. Yep..it can sometime take days, weeks to get everything just right. With a scope that can be adjusted in 0.25" clicks this should be fairly easy at 100 yards.

I have several ballistic programs that I run the loads through and I adjust the scope (windage) to the yardage I will shoot, based on info from the program. Most programs today compensate for altitude, temperature, humidity etc etc.

From the 100 yard position, I move to 300 yards with a clean and cool barrel and start over.

Now, can 0.5 " groups at 300 yards be done everyday?..of course not. In my orginal post, I never hinted that I could do it with every group. Wind is a clearly a big factor and the shooter has to know what a load is and is not capable of. However, with a 5-10 mph wind, and a knoweldge of ballistics, the average shooter should be able to compensate for a slight wind and still shoot sub-MOA. With practice and a well tuned rifle, sub-MOA shots are easily possible and should be the norm..not just a rarity.

Randy

[trappincoyotes39]

factory ammo has come along ways in the last 10 years and the production of such for sure, although I find reloading rewarding and can still make a differance on group size. How much will be up to the gun and how well those reloads are treated through each step. I like finding that magic recipe that this gun likes the best.
With my 25-06 that has been the 110 grain accubond, with my 22-250 the load that was worked up for us by another is 52 grain a max bullets. Both guns as shocklung stated are far more capable most days than I am.
Target turrets for elevation and knowing my scope reticle and what that means in accordance to drift in inches has been a real help on longer range shots. The technology keeps getting better on all ends and longer range shooting has been helped for many of us average guys with it and spending time with our rifles knowing what they will do.
I to have a burris on my 26-06 and like the bal plex reticle, it worked really well this fall deer hunting as I shot a decent WT deer at 455 yards, those accu bonds did the job first shot just a hair high my bad the second right in the boiler and he didn't move an inch. These reticules when sighted in are a great asset for quick accurate reference in pulling off longer shots on game or predators. The key is to have the load that fits the hash marks closely or know what differance your holdover or under is according to the ranging marks on that reticle.
Having a good clean trigger pull, working in your barrel, keeping it in good condition and practice your squeezing and breathing all help in shooting. A good free program can be found at biggameinfo.com you just need bullet weight,BC and muzzle velocity to get a good indicator as to what that load will do.

[Rod17]

Trappingcoyotes38

I agree with everything you said - great post. As you correctly stated, the dramatic improvement in stock rifles (barrel and bedding) and the improvement in factory ammunition makes this kind of shooting possible.

Most rifles are capable of shooting close to a MOA, most shooter are not.

Heres the general scenario. Guy goes out and buys a $600 Savage, great. Then says, jeez, I only have $100 buck left for a scope..so, he buys poor quaility scope, cheap rings and bases. Picks up one box of factory ammo shoots a few shots, make a few minor scope adjustment...shoots a 1-2 group (usually 3 or 4 shots) at 100 yards and says "good to go". I have seen it 1000 times. Fine, for the average deer hunter, 1.5 inch groups are fine.

But then they call BS on someone who shoots alot and is compulsive about precision. So be it.

Randy

[lb]

Let's get this straight, Amigo. I won't call bs, have not, so far, BUT to simplify accuracy on the level you indicate; it's NOT just a matter of very modestly priced, off the shelf equipment and factory ammo..... and a little target practice. That's world class shooting, partner. So, you shoot several factory rifles with factory ammo and they are all sub-minute of angle at three hundred yards, right? You are either very talented or very blessed. You own a very impressive and accurate arsenal! All with factory ammunition? Right? You don't spin them, or weigh anything, just different lots of factory fodder, right?

Where can I get some of this stuff? I have been wasting my time! LB

[Danny Clifton]

I'll bet a hundred bucks right now that no one is going to take a factory sporting rifle to a range, shoot factory ammo and get two 1/2 inch groups of three shots out of 100 groups. at 300 yards. (300 rounds)One 1/2 inch group would shock me. I'll bring my calipers. If I win you remburse me for gas if you win I'll pay for the ammo.

[Rod17]

LB.....the other rifles have had work done on them including a Remington 700 in .308 that has a 5R-barrel, jeweled action, free-floated etc...Leupold 6-20 target scope. its very very accurate.

However, the .22-250, that I refered to is an over the counter rifle, nothing done to it and it can do sub-MOA at 300 shooting Hornady 50 gr Vmax moly coated.

My original post was simply to say, hey, Savages are great rifles for the price. Did I get lucky and find an outstanding stock rifle..you bet! Can I do this every trip to range..no...already explained that one.

Danny, you'll be paying the gas bill...0.5 inch group at 100 yards is no problem.

I wont say or post anything more about this, I know what I have done and I am not here to convince anyone either way...good shootin.

Randy

[Danny Clifton]

Who said anything about 100 yards?

[trappincoyotes39]

Danny have you ever seen the new factory rifles being produced? Sendero, varmint, savages model 12 heavy target gun? These are factory guns, but look at the new things put into factory rifles makes them far from factory, excellent triggers that 8 years ago many had little adjust ability and many who where serious replaced them, now these triggers are much improved, barrels are much better and yes the high end factory ammo is made with powders you or I can't even get our hands on in many cases as they are made strictly for this high end ammo, adding accuracy for additional cost. Many can cut groups in half by adding a 200.00+ stock to these guns and make them really wicked. Gun makers are using better technology and offering what the customer wants, that is how they will stay in business, custom rifles are nice but for hunting purposes shooting out to 500 yards or so, for 2x's or more the cost can one justify them over a new factory rifle on group size? What do you truly gain for the price differance? In this day and age that advantage keeps shrinking.

Before you only got the high BC bullets by reloading now most of the major manufactures run test and offer premium bullets in what we could call factory loads. Couple that with range finders and new technology in scopes and bal programs can make everyone a much better shooter than 10 years ago. Do you agree or disagree?

As far as the groups being .5 at 300 yes I believe it can happen with a factory gun shooting factory ammo, shocklung already stated it isn't the norm but worked out in this case and I'm sure some others. He didn't say it happens all the time or even most the time, but on that day it worked out. What would his advantage be to stretch the truth?
I'm sure that my rem 700 22-250 varmint can do under an 1" at 300 yards it I can do my part of exact hold and make all shot's precise, I have done under an inch at 200 so why not 300? Again not all the time but the rifle has grouped darn well, the only thing done to it was add a good scope, adjust the trigger and shoot it alot and use a round the gun seems to really like.
Bows are no different the technology can make people a far better archer and increase the range to kill game far more than bows made 10 years ago. The engineering and components used have really elevated the range and accuracy of bows. The archer still has to do his/her part though or that accuracy is not there.

[nvwolfer]

Gosh I sure have wasted 1000's of dollars in custom rifles, I guess I should have headed to Wal-Mart.
If I am not mistaken a 300 moa is 3 inches.
A half inch group at 300 yards equates to a 1 inch group at 600 yards. I would highly recommend grabbing that rife and enter every benchrest competition that you can find as that is great shooting on both the gun and shooters part.
I don't know how anybody can afford factory ammo anymore especially anyone who shoots often. I was in a gun shop the other day and I saw the prices on factory ammo and they were all about $30.00 a box and I thought it was a mistake. I asked the clerk if those prices were correct and she said they were and that the price of ammo had really went up. I sure am glad I reload and that isn't cheap anymore.

[trappincoyotes39]

NVwolfer that is not how one can equate how well a gun can shoot at 600,700 or more as the range increases the affects of any minor flaw/mistake take on a different magnitude as the range increase, bullet drop gets more dramatic/wind drift does the same, any minor twitch wind increase or decrease at longer range and mirage all will have a larger impact than anyone shooting at 100-300 yards. Time of flight increases and gravity plays more the further one shoots, 1000 yard VLD type bullets don't start reaching there potential until after 300 yards.

Custom rifles are nice and shoot great and have their applications, but in the hunting world what do you trully gain from a 2,000- 3,000 dollar rifle? I would love an HS percision Varmint they guranteee .5 MOA at 100 yards, for less money can I get .6 or .7 group with a remington 700 and a little work and time and still kill things deader than dead or not? The answer is yes!
These guy's that shoot 1,000 yards and I know a couple don't do it with a modern sporting rifle, they use the heavy weights as the movement as yardage increases is a major factor on point of impact. The light category allows a rifle of 17lbs max who hunts with that? The other class is unlimited weight rifles.
There shooting 5.3" groups at 1,000 yards considering all factors that is darn good.
The world record is The Montana Club is proud to announce that Cody Finch of Kalispell, Montana, established a New World Record in the 16 1/2 lb. class with a group of 3.852 and a score of 97. These figures are being verified by the Pennsylvania Club and will be officially announced when the measurements are made. Congratulations to Cody for some very fine shooting.

So my math isn;t great but what does 3.852 at 1,000 yards equate into at 300 or 200 yards?

It cost me 15.90 per 20 rounds not including my time or any cost of my reloading equipment to reload 25-06, it is cheaper but the high end factory ammo fills the market for accuracy and saves time for those that don't or want to reload, and the high end stuff is the first to fly off the shelves at most sporting good stores as that is how one gets the same bullets the reloaders use.
I personaly like the feeling I get when I kill something that I have created and I do for others as well. I like to hear of there sucess with my reloads, but how much an improvment one gets from factory versus reloaded ammo is up to the gun and the shooter. It can make a differance how much is debateable.

[FWS]

but in the hunting world what do you trully gain from a 2,000- 3,000 dollar rifle?

Consistent accuracy and maybe more importantly, fit, function and reliability.

Feeding from the magazine is overlooked by a lot of guys and a lot of factory rifles don't really feed well. And most don't really fit the shooter which results in less than optimum shooting.

I'm a lot less concerned about the bench than about real world accuracy.

Offhand, prone, sitting, resting on the pack or over sticks, etc, etc.

[trappincoyotes39]

FWS who has had reliability issues with a model 700 Remington or Winchester model 70's? Feeding again who has had a problem with that in a 700? Also another issue factory gun makers are working on if you so choose the need. Remington I hear will offer the 700 in models with a high end detachable type magazine. In hunting situations I see little gain from.

As far as fit you can get HS stocks, bell/Carlson and many others for less than 300.00, if you need that more custom fit. I can spend 20,000 on a custom fit shotgun and have pretty looks too, but to knock down pheasants and grouse constantly do I need it? Nope a 11/87 scatter gun will kill them just as dead and as often.

I agree 100% on the bench versus the real world, but they all advertise the accuracy from a bench situation, again that comes back to the guy behind the rifle, using a bi pod/ sticks etc. Knowing the range and how that round responds in that gun under those circumstances will close the deal.

I have zero problem with custom guns as stated I would like a HS Precision some day, but the excuse that it shoots better and more consistent than my 700 rem? Not enough to justify the major cost differance in hunting situations, when I can reload and close that gap with a factory rifle to .2-.3 inch in most cases. In vitals on game does that account for the added 1,000 or more? Not in my opinion. Quailty bullets are the key and cost far less.

The 3,000 rifle isn't gaining you in that regard either. They sure look pretty and they are something not all own, but do they kill deer or coyotes, etc any better out to 500 yards? I would say NOPE. The bullet and knowing how it reacts determines a lot of it.

In hunting situations high end rifles are more of the look and feel aspect than what they will do in the field above and beyond a factory firearm. Just my .02 cents.

I once had a guy that wanted to go along hunting coyotes on the weekend, he had him a fancy custom .308 after we where done it took him much longer to fiddle around with the fancy detachable magazine release on that rifle than it did for me to unload my 700 by hitting the button and having the ammo drop to my hand and into my pocket LOL. Sure did look pretty though I'll give him that.

[lb]

I shoot custom benchrest rifles at coyotes. Even the McMillian stock is closer to $500 than $300. You can buy one of those super accurate Savages for that kind of money. Boy, am I stupid! The effort I put into my handloads borders on anal, and I will spare all of you the specifics. Anybody that buys their ammo off the shelf will never be the complete rifleman. And, I mean in the field, not off a bench. It's just a quantum leap from factory rifles to hand built custom jobs. Nobody would do these things unless there were some advantage, besides an ego trip. The advantage for most of us is a marginal increase in accuracy, at longer ranges.

I'll just make a simple statement. I have yet to see a stock factory rifle with "premium" factory ammo shoot quarter of minute angle at three hundred yards.

I don't want to offend anybody, but. We are not on the same wavelength, or speaking a differnt language. I shoot stock rifles, as well; (with handloads, of course) but I know the difference. LB