|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 15:55:51 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Feb 19, 2006 15:55:51 GMT -6
We've talked about this before- why does one area traditionally have a lot of mange and other areas don't.
Somehow I want cold to be a factor, but I can't see it being more than a minor issue.
Population densitys? Isolated populations?
We have so little mange here its a non factor. Its less than .002%. Other areas have as high as a 20-30% throw away rate.
I'd like opinions on to why you think your area does or doesn't have a mange problem. Indicate your area too if you would.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 17:09:02 GMT -6
Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 19, 2006 17:09:02 GMT -6
Literal explosion of mange here in the mid to late 90's. Absolutely decimated the fox population. I am sure it was totally related to fox population. We had a pile of fox due to low trapping and alot of cover relating to the arrival of crp.
I dont think up here it is an isolated outbreak. I am thinking all of NW quadrant of the state and ND were affected.
Somehow I want cold to be a factor, but I can't see it being more than a minor issue.
How do you want cold to be a factor? If you are thinkiing that maybe why your area doesnt have mange is due to cold than nah. We all know that it is quite abit colder on avge up here than in southern MN.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 17:14:52 GMT -6
Post by rk660 on Feb 19, 2006 17:14:52 GMT -6
20-30% throw away rate, thats living pretty darn good at times. One year after the pieces of the puzzle where coming together for me, Coyotes where pretty good money and I was going to clean up. I had a goal of 50 coyotes in a month part time after work. I quit after 19 and had skinned 4. That would have been around '87 I think. Five year ago, together with a friend we decided we had enough cats around to go about 2 weeks full time on them. We where going to snare coyotes while snaring cats if the cat catch didnt pan out. The first 9 all went in the ditch. We moved or lowered all coyotes loops and didnt set any more for them. Ended up with 49 coyotes snared, 2/3rd by accident, and skinned 8 or 9 and 1/2 them were a waste of time. So its been probibly a 30% to some years 80% throw away rate since early ninetys. Im guessing it peaked at over 60% 3 years ago across the board in SE Nebr. I didnt trap coyotes some of those years and spent eight years in WYO but knew from others about what mange was like. A year or two after that first big cat line the coyotes started getting thinner. Got to the point 3 years ago it was hard to see a coyote track, a pocket here and there then nothing. Last year the coyote population started bouncing back, we dont have the high rate of mange like we did 5 years ago, but you will throw away 1 out of 4 easy and dang near 1/2 have signs of mange.
I hate to say it Steve, but once you get it and it gets bad, I bet it dont go away for quite a few years.
Guys I know in sandhills of Nebr have terrible mange in places to the point they dont hardly trap. And they have some of the best coyotes in the country. Thats not too far from E Wyo. It might be prudent to inquire as to how bad the mange is where your heading next year.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 17:33:02 GMT -6
Post by terminator1 on Feb 19, 2006 17:33:02 GMT -6
I was always under the impression that mange was caused by a mite and was highly contagious to canines
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 17:40:51 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Feb 19, 2006 17:40:51 GMT -6
cold is not a deterant to mange. it gets, on occasion, minus 60 degrees F ( below zero!) in some areas I trap in wyoming and the fox were still devastated to near zero. one area consistantly did 1,000-1,300 head a year and went to a low of 38 fox ,2 years ago. in ks coyotes have been 10% or less of normal populations for at least 9 years in a row now, and the 10% left are all aged toothless geezers and 2/3 are throw aways. this is sw ks.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 17:50:32 GMT -6
Post by sbhooper on Feb 19, 2006 17:50:32 GMT -6
Where cold comes in as a factor is where the animal has bad enough mange to have thin hair. The cold will take them out at that point.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 17:53:38 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Feb 19, 2006 17:53:38 GMT -6
In an btw- actually the Rochester area is the second coldest spot in the state on average. When Embarass had 60 below a few years ago, Rochester had 55. Listen to the weather, usually IF or Warroad area is coldest, here 2nd.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 18:02:21 GMT -6
Post by jeffc on Feb 19, 2006 18:02:21 GMT -6
I only threw out maybe 1 out of ten earlyer in the season. Last week 5 out of ten but half of those were lice not mange or maybe im wrong and it was the beginings of mange. Last year alot higher percentage probably close to three out of ten were mangy. The State's furbearer Bioligist told me last year it will be around my area for another 6 to 7 years. I'm in SW Kansas also.
Jeff
|
|
Dom
Skinner...
Posts: 75
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 18:02:59 GMT -6
Post by Dom on Feb 19, 2006 18:02:59 GMT -6
For me this year it was a little more than 50% through aways. I caught 42 coyotes and had to throw away 22...crappy!
Dom.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 19:21:06 GMT -6
Post by 17HMR on Feb 19, 2006 19:21:06 GMT -6
My opinion is too many yotes, I seen no mange around here till prices fell and there were yotes every where you looked. I seems to progressivly get worse through the season,put 5 in the ditch before Jan, and the first week in Feb I put 10 of 12 in the ditch.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 21:15:38 GMT -6
Post by David Kuhlmann on Feb 19, 2006 21:15:38 GMT -6
Here in the extreme s.e. corner of Nebraska, mange has pretty well taken over the majority of the yotes. I've kept 8 out of 27 coyotes taken this year. Seems hit n miss i'd say. 3 yrs ago, i kept 70% of the yotes i caught & thought they were maybe gettin rid of the mange. But that wasn't the case. Last year i noticed a few of the coyotes i caught looked great, xept they had almost no belly fur. I assumed it was the start of mange, but maybe lice??? Anyone else seen this? I've not seen any fox around here w/ mange? but it's sure hit the yotes hard. Funny, you can go 20 miles south of here & them guys are keepin 80 % of the yotes & only thowin 20 % away..
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 22:10:36 GMT -6
Post by DaveLyons on Feb 19, 2006 22:10:36 GMT -6
So I am guessing harvest has everything to do with mange? I have only ever caught 1 coyote and 1 redfox with visable mange here in MI both these of these animals were caught the same year. This is Northern and Western Michigan. Dave
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 19, 2006 22:32:35 GMT -6
Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 19, 2006 22:32:35 GMT -6
In an btw- actually the Rochester area is the second coldest spot in the state on average. When Embarass had 60 below a few years ago, Rochester had 55. Listen to the weather, usually IF or Warroad area is coldest, here 2nd.
Dont want to get in a pissign contest over which part of the state is coldest but...
The average temps in Rochester are a bit warmer.
Warroad Jan 12/-10 Rochester Jan 20/4 Embarrass Jan16/-14
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 12:03:36 GMT -6
Post by nvwolfer on Feb 20, 2006 12:03:36 GMT -6
Mange and the spread of it confuses the crap out of me at times. I've been aerial hunting and locate a pair of coyotes and one will not have a hair on it and the other one showing no signs what so ever of mange. A lot of times we will land and most times it was as we seen it from the air. I've taken out several dens and killed the wet bitch, male and baby sitters and seen the same thing. Sometimes the pups will all have the mange and sometimes none of them do. One thing with the pups is that they either all have it or none of them have it. I know a fox will generally die within 60 days of contacting mange and there is a lot of unknown how long a coyote will hang on and there is speculation that some will survive. There have been several wolves that have been collared that had the mange and they recovered from the mange and no they weren't given a shot of ivamectin. I am quite sure that cold weather has nothing to do with any aspect of the mange. It is very prevalent in places in Texas and I don't believe they get too much cold weather. The only effect that it has I believe anyways is that they will maybe die a little faster in the cold weather, especially if they can't find a hay stack or out building to stay in. One thing that I have wondered about is that my dogs have tangled with 100's of mange infected coyotes and not one of them ever contacted it. I do use front line on them for fleas and ticks and I assume maybe that it is also keeping the mites carrying the mange off them too. I suspect that a lot of the spreading of mange is done by rolling on dead canines that were infected with and died from the mange. One thing for sure is that it sure isn't going away and I know that it is a hardship on furharvesters. As my hero Forrest Gump would say that's all I got to say about that.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 14:46:21 GMT -6
Post by 3n on Feb 20, 2006 14:46:21 GMT -6
I remember reading a field report on the USF&WS gray wolf web site about a collard wolf that came out of the mange..so it does happen.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 16:50:43 GMT -6
Post by DaveLyons on Feb 20, 2006 16:50:43 GMT -6
Okay if I can get this answered before this turns into this is what the gov. says and this is what a Expert say. What is the cure besides medication. Is it completely done with harvest? I am not picking on anyone person just want the info. Bob helped me with a case that I had last fall and he was DEAD ON with how long it would take. I couldn't pin down anyone coyote that I skinned that had the mite but one of them did but didn't show any sign of having mange. Dave
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 17:06:13 GMT -6
Post by nvwolfer on Feb 20, 2006 17:06:13 GMT -6
Well by golly I ain't got any education although I did graduate from high school. The only reason being is that the school marm wanted me out of there so bad that she would have done anything to get me out of there and the easiest and fastest was to say here's your diploma now get to heck out of Dodge and please don't ever come back and that's how I graduated from high school at 12 years old. I couldn't go to college as to get admitted I at least had to know how to spell college. So point blank I'm dumber than a box of rocks. That being admitted and understood I got a couple of probably ingorant questions. Now it is fact that a percentage of the wolves in the Yellowstone area have contacted mange. The wolves were tested and then collared and released. These tests were conducted by experts in their field and I have to believe that they conducted the proper test. I am not sure but I recall at the seminar that the recovery period was a year and a half. As I said I readily admit that I am dumber than a box of rocks and by no means am I an expert in this or anything else in the world. My question being is after reading Mr. Wendt's statements is that if all animals die after contacting mange unless there is human intervention with that human having a syrine full of ivermectin then if one wolf of a pack contacts the mange, the wolf being the communal animal that they are, then every member of that pack will contact mange and then will die. I bet there are a lot of elk and other wolf prey that are doing happy flips over this data. If this is true then there is a real possibility of the wolf going extinct especially with the mange being as wide spread as it is. OOPS I just looked out the window and seen a herd of elk doing happy flips at the base of the mountain. My other question is when a pair of coyotes are spotted where one has the mange and the other does not you stated that the reason is that they recently hooked up. I have many times seen in dens as I said in the earlier post where some of the adults in the family group will have mange and some don't. Sometimes the pups have the mange and sometimes they don't. Now obviously they hadn't recently hooked up at least not in every case where I had seen this.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 18:25:50 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Feb 20, 2006 18:25:50 GMT -6
bill, there is no firm answer, as long as there are infected animals, they will infect others in the area. learned minds tell us it is population density related, yet we know that is not true as even in areas of skeleton populations, like indiana, fox still have mange. It is NOT passed from generation to generation. if one generation of fox have it, they all die, all of them. coyotes on the other hand can live for years with it before death, and miserable lives they have. the average time from first contact with the mite in foxes, to death, is 60-90 days. as a trapper I`m sure you have caught 6-7 resident reds and then one near death scab ball. the last living mange fox in a family group takes to wandering aimlessly for miles and miles in the last days of it`s life, explaining the odd mange fox mixed with the good. ma natures way of making sure the mite survives, as each resident foxes territory the sick one wanders thru, they rough him up good and send him on his way, and thus are given the 60-90 day death sentence. spread is strictly from close contact- touching, rubbing noses, fighting etc. the mite HAS to have a host for body heat as it can not produce it`s own. so no mites live in dens from year to year, and no need to burn or bury infected foxes. when the fox dies, the mites die, ca-poot, the end. now, back to your question how long it is in an area- apparently forever or mange would be extinct.
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 19:01:39 GMT -6
Post by billkasten on Feb 20, 2006 19:01:39 GMT -6
Thanks Bob .Now if the host animal then dies out completly in the area would mange leave the area or would other infected animals move in ? Guess you'd have to kiil em all . We know thats not possible so I guess we'll always have this darn mite as long as we have any population at all .
|
|
|
Mange
Feb 20, 2006 19:24:11 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Feb 20, 2006 19:24:11 GMT -6
my guess is it rises and falls in an area(speaking fox here only), times of great die offs followed by lighter times, but always endemic in the world. coyotes, I don`t know if infested areas will ever get better. I have to presume it cycles, but cycles in much larger areas and longer time intervals than fox, due to the coyotes ability to live for extended periods with it. remember we are talking 2 different animals and 2 different mite species since they are host specific, i.e. fox can`t give it to coyotes or vice versa, save the abherrant temporay infection in cross infection between species- that is self limiting- and gives the false impression to "institutionalized higher minds" from animals showing titers to mange infection yet recovered, but never recovered from a sarcoptic mite of their own species specific infection. sometimes book learning lags terribly behind the real worl realitys. mange is almost like the shows on tv, "cold case" , or the other medical detective type shows. you can`t know part of mange epidemiology, you have to know all of it to understand apparent inconsistencys are not inconsistencys at all.
|
|