Trap speed

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Do you guys think that speed is important as far as how fast a trap closes?

I really don't except for trap coverings that bog a trap down.

That's kind of more a function of power vs. speed anyway isn't it?

Joel

[billcat]

Joel,

Ever notice how slow a longspring is when you set it off in your hand. Set it off on the ground and it's much faster. The springs push on the ground and all the force goes to closing the jaws, no kickback.

Bill

[lynxcat]

I dunno...I personally think trap speed is very relevant ... especially when it comes to something that's purported to be VERY quick...and light footed...aka..BOBCATS!!!
lynx

[Bob Jameson]

Speed is relevant to trap cover and conditions. I believe any trap made is ready to do the job as long as we do ours.Keeping a set in as good a working condition as possible is the key. For example, I have never used four coil traps and never saw any advantage working with a partner who used them.

Pan tension and short throw adustment lends to fewer misses with traps. As well an animal will find it is not as fast as a trap firing up as he is pushing down. The reaction time just isnt going to help him if your equipment is tuned and your trap setting mechanics are in play.

[bobCATching]

I feel several things go into how efficient a trap is at catching animals. billcat brought up a good point about longsprings. I've never been much of a small trap guy for cats when running winter traplines, dealing with snow cover etc. Proper pan tension is very important. A committed cat's foot with weight on it, is harder to pull up than a light stepper and it falls faster. Another thing is distance beneath the pan to the ground. How far will the committed foot fall with that weight on it? I seem to get better foot catchs with my longsprings than I do with my 1 3/4's although the jaw spread is about the same size. I feel it's because the cats foot falls farther into the longspring because of it's high profile pan compared to the low profile 1 3/4 coilspring. Thoughts?

[trappnman]

I feel it's because the cats foot falls farther into the longspring because of it's high profile pan compared to the low profile 1 3/4 coilspring. Thoughts?

I'm not sure I follow this. A high profile pan means the pan sits higher in relation to the jaws. A low profile means the pan sits low in relationship to the jaws.

Logically then- a foot would be lower in the trap with a low profile pan.

assuming that each pan fired with the same amount of dog travel- I wold think you would get a deeper catch with a low profile pan.

[Rod17]

You cannot mechanically separate speed and power. The overall "power" of the springs is directly translated into the speed of the jaws. More powerful springs, faster trap speed.

Of course the benefit of this power is that you can bed and cover the trap with more dirt, sand, etc. Out west here where the wind never stops, you need alot of cover, yet want that trap to come up through the cover fast. Snow is also a factor.

I have seen a few very strong traps - that honestly, I thought were much too strong for most conditiones except snow. The rational for the strength was the use of waxed dirt and a really deep cover of this waxed dirt over the trap. Can't argue with that logic and the experience that went with it.

[bobCATching]

""""I'm not sure I follow this. A high profile pan means the pan sits higher in relation to the jaws. A low profile means the pan sits low in relationship to the jaws. Logically then- a foot would be lower in the trap with a low profile pan. assuming that each pan fired with the same amount of dog travel- I wold think you would get a deeper catch with a low profile pan.""""

Keep in mind: I'm talking just about exposed trap cat sets with singles on the trap pan..and this is just an observation I have seen with cats caught in these types of traps. I'm attempting to figure out why this seems to have occurred. In a longspring, the pan does set higher in the jaws but with the weight of a committed cats foot, it drops farther, as is still falling as the jaws start to close. With the lower profile, the foot bottoms out against the trap frame just after the trap fires. I know I've had more two toed caught cats in the small coilsprings than I like to have. Maybe there's another reason for it?

[bobCATching]

Another comment on Joel's original post. Is there a practical difference in trap speed to be seen in the field? Maybe yes, maybe no? If someone is shooting a deer at 10'. Does it matter if he shoots it with a 30/30 or a .270? Not really. No deer is going to jump the gun on a 30/30 at 10' even though it's a lot slower cartidge than a .270. Dead is dead.

[trappnman]

With the lower profile, the foot bottoms out against the trap frame just after the trap fires. I know I've had more two toed caught cats in the small coilsprings than I like to have. Maybe there's another reason for it?

wouldn't the two be opposite occurances? the foot bottoming out shouldn't lead to 2 toes- it should lead to high pad/lower leg catches.

[bobCATching]

Not with a trap with 5 3/8 jaw spread. And then consider you are dealing with wet frozen ground or frozen partially melted snow cover leading to a split second delay in trap firing... maybe allowing for some reflex action on the part of the cat. Or maybe it's just the fact that it's a coilspring design lends itself to freezing to the gound with exposed trap sets.
All things being equal: wouldn't a trap that allows the cats foot to keep falling after the pan is tripped make a better catch than the same size trap that does not allow as much foot freefall after the pan is tripped? ........ and remember having the proper pan tension makes for a foot with more body weight on it when the trap fires.

[billcat]

All my longspring #3s have the pans lowered at least 1/4" below stock. It seems like I've gotten more full foot catches since I dropped them down. That could be a result of going to highly crowded open set, but I was using that type of set before lowering the pans. Same travel on the pan, just a 1/4" lower to begin with. I don't use shingles on my pans, because it raises the effective height of the pan. I want the pan at least level with or slightly below the level of the jaws. The real key to good catches is having enough pan tension so the critter is commited before the trap fires. If the animal has signifigant weight on the pan when the trap fires, he's yours. And you do want some over-travel on the pan, to ensure that it fires before reaching the end of it's total fall. I've always hated the mushy feel of the pan on a coilspring trap. Always hated the idea of getting pan tension from tightening the screw. The good kind of tension comes from the trap springs. Compare a longspring (LS) trap to a coil spring (CS). The jaws catch the dog at about the middle on the LS, whereas, the CS jaw catches the dog near the dog eye. Most of the spring force is going to the trap frame on the CS trap and not providing any pan tension. Look at the posi-trip pan, again it's a leverage setup. The pan pivot point is far removed from the dog engagement point, hence the small upward force on the dog is magnified and results in a positive feeling pan tension. I've lowered the stock pans on most of my CS traps as well as the LS traps, but still can't get rid of the mushy feel. The only CS trap I've had any experience with that doesn't have the mushy feel is the #1 1/2 Victors. Again look at where the jaw catches the dog.

Sorry I got longwinded,

Bill

[Steve Gappa]

Not with a trap with 5 3/8 jaw spread.

if the traps are different sizes, no comparisons of pan heights is valid.

If the traps are the same size, then the l ower the pan is, the deeper the foot will be.

[bobCATching]

Rereading all the info here: I do think the most important point is pan tension. The weight of the committed foot on the trap pan. billcat, I read your post and not sure about the thought of the shingle making the pan set to high. I know that if you lay your screen on top of the jaws and then sprinkle dirt/duff over the screen, is it any higher than just the shingle itself? And I find there are real distinct advantages to having that slightly higher pan in the winter. Mainly doing away with the depression that snow lays in. We have all seen cats rock hop in the snow for as long as there are rocks for them to walk on they will stay out of the snow. I typically set a small rock under the loose jaw, raising it ever so slightly. By slightly angling the trap itself, it essentially lowers the pan in relation to the jaws. But I keep the full space under the pan open by not packing it in with dirt. We all do little things that work that have an overall effect on the set efficiency. I still think Gappa is not getting the whole picture, too focused on just pan height, "exactly" the same trap size. The freefall space under the pan has to make some difference. It just has to. Even if it's only 1/4", the body weight of the animal will keep the foot moving down. Simple physics. Maybe another analogy would be one of us stepping on ice that would just about support our weight until we put all of our weight on it. I would fall farther stepping on ice with 2" of space under it than on the same ice with only 1/2" of space under it. My foot would fall farther before the jaws would hit my leg. Maybe billcat has another good point about the "mushy" coilsprings. All I know is I have seen a slight difference in the field. Maybe I'll never know the real reason behind it.

[bobCATching]

The worst traps for me have have been the duke 1 3/4's. And these had the pan lowered. Following the theory that a lower pan makes a better catch, these should have been my best performing 13/4 traps. I lowered the pan by offsetting the dog and bending the cross frame up some to provide for a little dirt clearance between the jaw and the trap frame. The dukes provided no clearance there at all. A little dirt on the cross frame would prevent me from setting the trap since the jaw needed to lay right on the cross frame in order to set the trap. The bridgers, sleepy creeks and victors did not give me that problem since their design allows some space between the jaw and the cross frame.

[Bristleback]

Lots of good "thinkin" going on here......

I've not worked with many longsprings....but the one's I have seemed slow and a bit lethargic?? They just didn't seem near a fast as a coil spring........no tests done, simply observations over the years.

I see an advantage with LS over CS with traps freezing down, but since I use waxed dirt it's not an issue.

Speed vs Power......hummmmm.......trip like sized LS and CS, from what I remember the CS jumps in the air, don't remember a LS doing it in such as a dramatic fashion......mean anything, not sure it does, just another observation.

I too feel very strongly about pan tension, very short throw= good catches. I do night latch, have never played with the Miles system.....I feel the night latch sure helps take the dead movement/lag out of the pan .

Billcat, I'd be interested in hearing what you're thinking about the addition of a shingle adding to the height of the pan.....are you talking about the thickness of the shingle making a difference?? Not sure I fully understand.

Nvbobcat, as to the pan continuing to fall once it's tripped vs tripping and stopping, yep I see a difference....... a cats momentum, pan tension certainly play a role in the how well a critter is hooked up.

As to pan height, I've always preferred a lower pan, to a point....I like my pans like Billcat, equal to or lower than the top of the jaws..........but not so low like the old Montgomery step ins, from what I remember there was so little clearance under the pan.......it wouldn't take much to slip by and get under the pan and hinder it's firing especially with tough weather conditions. I just never like a pan that set up above the jaws....

Add to it the advocates of powering up traps(4 coiling and helper springs) vs standard 2 coiling.......I know I still have the coyote mentality, bury the trap deep and solid, pan tension..........I know with my cat sets I'm getting away from that....deep bedding and all the covering....thanks to Steve, Joel and Bill.
So now where are we.....LOL

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Bill good post comparing longs to coils.

I never thought about the relationship between the place where the dog crosses the jaw conciously.

Makes a lot of sense.

I know that I have traps that I seem to prefer are dogless coils and longsprings.

I do like the smaller coils in dry weather and for areas around town and areas with lots of lions.

I agree the smaller coils don't seem to have that mush feel like the big honking #3's and 4's.

I like my pans down inside the jaws and I like a crisp letoff.

The modified miles trigger on longsprings with the humped cross accomplishes this and the dogless montgomery/montana does as well.

I think if someone stole all my cat traps and I had to start over I think I'd just buy 3n's which I'd lower the pans on and create a 3.5" pan or just use a #5 bridger paws i trip.

I'm getting to where I don't have much use for a dogged coilspring. Especially the big ones.

I do like the dogless design but they require the shingle which means more weight to pack, and more time screwing with it.

I'm going to weld some big pans on my #4 Montgomery's and see if the jaw spread is adequate to keep the coils from kicking the foot out. Try it on some coyotes first. lol!!

Joel

[Steve Gappa]

Conversely, Duke 1.75s are the only 1.75 I'd use for coyotes. Short notch them, and they are ready to go. The pans on my Dukes are level with the jaws.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

You like the Duke better than the Montana?

I have only bought one duke and that was a #3 softcatch.

I set it in the backyard in case a dog came around before the coyote and the rubber rotted out.

I've never cared to bury a 1.75. They are fine in exposed sets and even buried sets that are blocked up heavy but I just don't have the confidence with them in a flat set.

Joel

[trappnman]

No- I like the Montana better that the Dukes but in 1.75s, I'll take the Duke anyday.