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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Nov 11, 2006 14:32:42 GMT -6
I know we've been over this before but maybe someone can tell me how to use a wire screen without having it kick the loose jaw up.
I made some a couple of years ago and I took some out yesterday for the heck of it.
I mean all I do is wrestle with them.
I like the idea of a nice flat wire screen cover but I can't seem to ever acheive that without a fight.
I get it bowed up over the pan and the loose jaw sticking up in the air.
The stuff I'm covering with is light Juniper duff.
Do you guys that use wire rely on heavy soil to hold it down?
I'm about to give up on them for a couple more years.
Joel
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Post by GUTPYLZ on Nov 11, 2006 14:43:05 GMT -6
Are you talking about the pan covers? If, you are I'm trying it for the first time this year. I hope its not a pain in the arse. I heard people say to use a hain pin to hold them on. Hope it helps. I'm starting to set tomorrow if I learn anything I will let you know.
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Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
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Post by Rod17 on Nov 11, 2006 15:39:49 GMT -6
Lots more guys on here with more experience than me...but... I have fooled around with steel screen (heavy black screen from OG) and had every problem you could imagine. I think it is a big pain in the ass, but if it is cut exactly correct, it wont buckle.
It needs to be cut exactly to fit tightly into the crotch of the jaws, so the jaws hold it down and flat.
I have found (for bridger 3s) that the screen should just touch the inside of the free jaw. I dont have the screen under the free jaw like some describe, because it will push the free jaw up. Also, with the stiff black stuff that OG sells, when the screen is completely under the free jaw, the damn trap constantly fires when I am trying to bed it.
I have switched to heavy waxed canvas and love it. I bought some really super heavy duck canvas on-line (the kind they make tarps out of; very cheap, too), dipped in wax and ready to go. They are lot easier to work with than steel, do the same thing and are as water-proof as most other methods. They dont provide the same degree of stiffness as screen, but with a heavy coat of wax it is very close. In my experience, you need to have the canvas in the hot wax for a minute or so, so it absorbs a good amount of wax. When I take them out, just give a good shake over your wax pot so the external waxdrips off.
They are great for using with the MJ-600 and traps of similar design,. When both jaws are held down, getting steel screen to work is frustrating.
Hope this helps
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Post by 3n on Nov 11, 2006 16:54:48 GMT -6
Re: Screens (plasma, thin, wide...) « Reply #9 on Jan 25, 2004, 11:41am »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good morning Steve, from a western lurker!
I use only aluminum screen, cut 5.5 by 7 inches. This will work on everything from #2's to 4's.
I boil them for just a few minutes on the stove with a bit of baking soda. If working in very fine soils, like the Nebraska Sand Hills I will wax them. This is only to prevent the soil from running thru. Not to add stiffness.
To install, lay it in place on the unset trap. Slide it a bit too far towards the eye of the dog. Then hold in place and pull back towards you while forcing the notch in pan thru the screen. Now pull it some more to put a short rip in the screen where the dog meets the notch. This rip will help it to lay flat. With a little practice, you will be have the screen centered on the trap when your done.
Lay the loose jaw down on the screen. If there is a bubble over the pan, slide your thumb under the pan and with your other hand, form fit the screen to the pan by pushing down on the screen around the edges of the pan. The screen does not have to be completly flat on the pan.
After I cut my screens I pull them over the counter top to eliminate the curve or memory . makes it easier to store and transport them.
Important You have to cut your screens large enough to be held in place by the jaws. Also, do not cut a slit in the end so that you can slide the screen in after setting the trap. You need to install the screen before laying the trap in the bed.
Now the important question.....Does the use of screen really increase the pan or "kill area" of the trap?
I posted this on another forum a while back but will repeat it here for the new folks.
Yes, up to a point.
BUT, BUT, BUT, I think the whole thing about the screen having a bigger kill area has been overstated and exaggerated. The "any foot inside the jaws" statements are simply wrong!
I cut the screens large enough so that they lay under both jaws. So the "angle" of the screen is from the edge of the pan to the bottom of the jaw. If you can picture a cross section of a trap bedded and covered with dirt, with a screen installed as I described, you will see that the screen and pan actually form sort of a flat topped tee-pee (for lack of a better description) sloping down to the bottom of the inside of the jaws.
When using something like a underall, trappers cap or pan covers such as baggies or waxed paper that wont support the dirt's weight, you have a void only under the pan, with the entire area between the pan and the jaw filled/packed with dirt. On large traps, this creates a situation where the animal can stand inside the jaws but with his foot only partly on the pan. The packed dirt can and will support the animals weight prevention the trap from being tripped. (The first time I ever used the "underalls" I missed five coyotes on the first check. Each had a foot clearly inside the jaws but only partially on the pan. This was with #3 traps)
Contrast this with the sloping void created by the screen. A foot partially on the pan will not be supported by firm dirt underneath and will fire the trap. But due to the sloping of the screen/void you can see that out close to the jaws the dirt is deeper and in truth extends clear down to the bottom of the jaw, and will support the foot. This is a good thing, because we don't want animals springing the trap while a foot is on the jaw.
Thus "any foot inside the jaws" is not really true. Nor would we want it to be, or we would be firing traps when a foot is partially on the jaws. This is why G. Sterling was opposed to O'Gorman selling the Sterling traps with the special larger pans.
What is true is that the use of screens on large traps gives a larger kill area that eliminates some of the tracks inside the jaws.
On my traps with 5.5 and 6 inch jaw spreads I have seen no advantage in using the stiffer steel screen. Remember the screen does not really serve as a larger pan. All the screen has to do is support the weight of the dirt, and thus create the larger void. However on the larger traps with 6.5 inch jaw spreads there may be some advantage with the steel.
The use of screen offers other advantages also. It supports the weight of the dirt after a rain. This is not a small thing as it prevents the dreaded donut and saves having to re-bed traps during non-freezing temps. It also allows moisture to pass thru and evaporate which helps with wet spots. Allowing the moisture to pass through is the reason I don’t like to wax my screens unless forced to by soil types.
I use the screen on everything from #2's on up. I agree with Steve, that there are some advantages to a small pan on the smaller traps when used on coyotes. But I'm not so sure on fox sized critters. I think it all depends on the relationship between size of the target species foot and the distance between the edge of the pan and the jaws.
« Last Edit: Jan 25
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Post by cameron2 on Nov 11, 2006 20:10:54 GMT -6
3N
That's a great discussion on steel screens. I had the same experience Joel talks about, but just kept fooling with them and sort of discovered the solutions you mention.
However, I'm now a big fan of the rubberized shelving material that Hollywood uses on his cat trapping video. I feel it gives me all the same benefits of steel screen, but doesn't give me those toe catches that steel screen always seemed to produce. With cats, the toe catch isn't as bad as a canine, but I think the rubberized stuff has all the same benefits of steel, and it's easier to work with.
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Post by 3n on Nov 11, 2006 20:48:22 GMT -6
cameron2...that was a good post on using screen pan covers...Chris McAllister made that post I just dug it out of the archives.
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Post by flatlander (Jeff Yancy) on Nov 11, 2006 22:42:02 GMT -6
Before this state went to Cage Trapping, I always used sandwich baggies. They are cheap, readily available and you can stretch them real tight. They also fit all size Traps! Just my thoughts!
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Post by gunny on Nov 11, 2006 22:45:02 GMT -6
Cameron,
I've been dinking with the "Hollywood"pan cover material on #2 bridgers.
I can see it increasing the kill area with light pan tension.
Do you feel it increases the kill area with 2-4 pounds of pan tension?
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Post by cameron2 on Nov 11, 2006 22:56:51 GMT -6
There are two types of shelf liner material There is a real heavy type (preferred), and then a thinner version. I like the thinner one on my 1.65's, but the heavier material operates a lot like screen in terms of kill area for larger traps.
However, the good point that 3N's post made is that this idea of a big kill area is a bit overrated. Ya, you might have an increased kill area, but what you see more of is toe catches. I'd rather have a slightly smaller kill area, and have more full pad catches.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Nov 11, 2006 23:23:42 GMT -6
I far prefer an uncovered walkthrough set without a pan cover but sometimes it's just easier to make a flat set under a juniper.
It kind of sounds to me like most have the same experience with wire.
Hollywoods stuff is good, quiet and soft, plus it breathes which I think is real important for a covered trap.
I have a bunch of a type of solar screen that I've always liked.
I think I'll put the wire away again for a couple of years.
Joel
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Post by briankroberts on Nov 12, 2006 6:53:47 GMT -6
Lots of good stuff said here about steel screen. I use it 100% of the time, two things that make a big differance are , No.1 make sure it wide enough to be under the solid jaw on both sides(pinched between the lever and the jaw). No. 2 make sure the levers are all the way down and the screen flat before you lay the jaws down. If you torque the jaws down its just doesn't work. Once the screen is flat and you lay the jaws down and engage the dog your screen will be plenty flat. IMHO I like O'g plain steel screen best, but I've used the black and aluminum and all work. As far as Coyotes go its the only system for me. I have noticed of the few cats I've caught some toe catches. As far as pan tension, with the screens I run about 2 1/2 lbs and I still catch bunnies....B.....
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Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
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Post by Rod17 on Nov 12, 2006 10:18:18 GMT -6
BrianKRoberts....good info on your post.
How is your steel screen cut in terms of fitting under the loose jaw? Thats the real issue. If the screen is too stiff and under the loose jaw, downward pressure on the loose jaw can fire the trap and that could throw the canines foot out of striking range.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Nov 12, 2006 11:19:10 GMT -6
I may be missing something but I've decided that I think it is an inferior pan cover.
Joel
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Post by edge on Nov 12, 2006 11:28:11 GMT -6
I am going to steal Hollywoods pan cover idea,at least when the freeze thaw hits.But I like screen,sometimes I wax it some times not,to use I just pop it over the pan,reach under the pan and hold it up with my thumb,squoosh it down around the pan and presto,done.It works equally well on 2 or 4 coils.
On my dogged traps,which are small,I just cover or use wax paper.
Edge
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 12, 2006 16:22:24 GMT -6
I absolutely love using the screens. The ones I use are the ones made for the Montana's- they measure 5 1/4 by 6 1/2.
that post by Chris is an excellent one. Chris is the one at Nebraska a few years that showed me how he does it, and its quick and simple just like he described. Very few of the screens don't lay flat under the loose jaw. I one does, I just mold it like he described.
I think that you do get a bigger kill area- how much so is open for debate.
But more importantly, the time spent bedding and covering the trap is so much quicker- and easier. Thats the main reason I like them.
and uses less dirt.
-----------------------------------------------------
I must have missed the Hollywood thing- enlighten me.
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Post by Freak( Jim V.) on Nov 12, 2006 19:30:25 GMT -6
Took me some convicing to try then some showing to figure out , But I truely love the suff now. For me , i especially likr the Og black. Have notice that is essential that there is no slop in pan bolt to get it to work best though.Have seen some cut Vs and others just punch a hole , but this year I just used my file to punch hole then ripped on through to the backside and it layed out perfect for me. Many thanks to Brian and Zags for helping me with shortening the learning process on this stuff. As far as increased toe catches. Held by a toe or 2 is much better than a track on the pattern betwen the jaws and I have personally seen the major difference in what it does to help.
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Post by edge on Nov 12, 2006 19:55:05 GMT -6
**I must have missed the Hollywood thing- enlighten me.**
OK,but just this once......
Steve"Hollywood"Wood,who posts here as novbobcat or something has a vdd out on cat trapping;which I bought on spec as I never met the guy;I usually only buy from guys I know;Tom Miranda and Wood are the 2 exceptions.
Turns out to be a very good vdd,fun,lots of pissed off kitties.
One of the subjects in it is a pan cover made of shelf liner which is basically rubber bumps melded together into a sheet.This sheet has weep holes and can be had in 2 weights,standard and heavy;heavy looks good.It is pliable(unlike screen)drains(unlike some screen)and is pleasing to the pads(unlike ALL screen).Cant freeze cuz it cant retain water(unlike most women).
I recommend damn few vdds or vids,I endorse the Bobcatching vdd by Wood,buy it,you wont be sorry(or any sorrier than you are now.)
Edge(parenthetically speaking)
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Post by edge on Nov 12, 2006 20:00:35 GMT -6
Cant edit my post......so many stars,so few capabilities....
Soooooo...furthermore,it is available in black, brown(tan)and off white..........MN dirt,UT "dirt",and UP"dirt"after Oct.
Edge
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Post by woodie on Nov 12, 2006 22:46:49 GMT -6
I just cut a bunch of pan covers for some Montanas today using Holly Woods material,I like it better than anything I've tried.Also will plug Hollys dvd ,well worth the money. Mike
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Post by Bristleback on Nov 12, 2006 23:50:24 GMT -6
Just a few comments to add. I fall in the " I use OG black screen 100% of the time and sure like it" category.
The width of the screen is, IMHO, the most critical measurement, this needs to be on the $$$.......too wide and it will bubble for sure, too narrow and it will not be held down between the base and the jaws.
Also, I've gone to nipping the corners at a 45degree angle, this especially helps when bedding in a tight trap bed, often times the stiff screen would catch on the sides of the bed and want to keep the loose jaw up.
The height of you pan can also play havoc.......I run 100% all fully modified Bridger #3..........so when modifying mine, I want as low a pan that will allow, this will also help with the screen laying flat. Along with what has already been stated.
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