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Post by bobwendt on Oct 27, 2005 9:23:05 GMT -6
how can you stay anywhere longer than a week without a catch (1/week) and justify the time and miles with fuel like it is? I have spots I stay 2 weeks if I have to drive by everyday anyway, and leave my driveway set year `round, but on a "loop" it is 5-7 days on coyote and 3-5 on fox and then move to greener pastures. any longer and it is not cost efficient as cheap as fur is and as high as expenses are. ( I`m not THAT good!) basically when they are all caught, or 95%, they run out and I just can`t justify staying hoping a scraggler or travelor comes around. just doesn`t pay. when I go out of state most every trap I own is a salty rust bucket by the end of the trip as at the end I start picking the least worst of the most worst pile as no time or facility to even wash traps, let alone dye or wax. Honestly, if you saw my traps at the end of a 4-6 week campaign you would wonder why anyone even bothers to wax and dye as theyare just terrible (fresh rust) and still catching. but, each to his own and if you do what catches you more fur, well, that`s what it`s all about. I do the same but my measure is fur/miles or fur/hrs and not totals over an unlimited time or miles.
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Post by gunny on Oct 27, 2005 9:25:47 GMT -6
Tman, are you positive its the rusted trap?
Some other possible factors: If you are going to the same set every 24 hrs. for six weeks. There is going to be a lot of your scent there fresh every day and a lot of it.
Even if one walks in his own footprints every check, there is going to be a lot of visible signs that you have been there especially weeks 2-6.
I always felt that coyote blood at a set was taboo and said "BOO" to the next coyote. Perhaps after killing 2-3 at a location it is having that effect.
Too much lure in the wrong places due to numerous set reconstructions.
FWIW
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Post by trappnman on Oct 27, 2005 12:30:45 GMT -6
good thoughts- but heres the point..a fresh trap works, a rusty trap doesn't.
That is..I can have avoidance, change traps- coyote.
no other changes, checking traps as often, etc.
Bob- my whole line isn't left in that long- but certain spots are.
Go back to misting a set- I've proved over and over again to myself, that misting a used trap works. OGorman and Leggetts say- and I use their names only to point out this thuought isn't original with me- that the misting covers the rusting smell. I agree.
so- change a trap and be sure..or mist and wonder....
for sure its an experiment, as I have never been an advocate of changing traps out...so we shall see.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 28, 2005 7:22:33 GMT -6
also- very, very few of my sets aren't driven to and check from the truck. In addition, farmers daily almost travel the same field roads. Farmland coyotes are so used to human scent and activities, that I too find it hard to believe that a rusting trap (if I have not made this distinction before, I meant to and will say it now for all time- I am referring to RUSTING traps, not RUSTED) will cause caution in coyotes.
Or should I say increase caution. I would gladly buy a tape that was nothing but coyotes working sets until they get caught. I'd like to see 30 or so random catches, to see if what I visualize as happening is. (I have seen that collararium video)
From the other videos I have seen, from tracks in the snow- I see a coyote working sets in 2 ways...1 )walking up to it and stepping right in the trap and Bang! or 2) approaching it cautiously, coming from side, circling around if possible.
On a fresh set, I see more of #1. On a remake, I often see #2- coming over, standing back, walking around a little, then working set. With caution. He's interested, but with typical coyote behavior, what he doesn't understand he thinks about.
So add in a rusting trap, with animal odors, with lure around, catch circle (cause a fresh set has no rusting)- with my scent, with gun powder..who knows..but the COMBO of all...gives me a % of avoidances that I want to eliminate.
Misting a remake set is a big help and for sure reduces such actions- putting in a fresh trap (one not shiny and chewed to the metal surface) eliminates it- at least thats what I am seeing for now.
At the very least- I know that the trap I check for a week or more- IS fresh and ready to go and that there will be no avoidance, however slight that might be, from the trap itself.
Old time methods get bad raps now- we are all so smart and savoy don't cha know.... but I've read in several old method books how old timers would bury horseshoes at their set locations- getting the canines used to the smell of rusting iron. Ever wonder HOW they came to that conclusion?
Keep in mind- with all the old cleanliness discussions we used to have- it was never that the extreme methods did not work and did not add coyotes that would not have been caught---- the discussion always was was it worth it. Would changing boots at every set give you enough extra coyotes to be worth the effort for example? I think no...others think yes.
Just like on this rust. For heavens sakes, I've taken as many coyotes in rusty traps as anyone...but I hate misses, I hate leaving the coyotes on MY farms for seed...
I have areas that are major travel/dispersal/social areas- call it what you want- lets just say a GOOD spot...where I take a coyote every 3 days or so...for 5-6 weeks. I want those coyotes and I want the trap to be ready when the coyote comes through. I've slowly, this wasn't an overnight thing, come to the conclusion that perhaps changing out traps would be the final piece of the puzzle.
At least there is enough evidence to warrant changing traps for a season. As far as time, to think it takes more time is nonsense- if anything, it saves time. Literally under a half a minute to cut J hook and replace trap. And a new set, if I so decide, is much quicker than a remake.
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Post by dj88ryr on Oct 28, 2005 7:50:54 GMT -6
Steve, even quicker with a split ring.
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Post by thefoxtrapper on Oct 28, 2005 8:12:34 GMT -6
well, way i see it, 90% of the time Im only in a spot 3 days, max 5 days, just pull the traps and clean and re-treat, then move to the next line, or when I get time, go back to some of the same farms where I know animals are still alive, and re-set, I dont have time to trap many places for more than a couple days at a time, so dont have the rust problem, unless I get lazy and dont clean them, but never noticed any major problems from fox with a rusty trap, hoping to knock down some coyotes in a few weeks, but only trapping for a few days so wont know if I get refusal or not from rust, cause unless raining, shouldnt get rust that quick, w
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Post by primetime on Oct 28, 2005 8:31:28 GMT -6
I've noticed that on all my catches this year that I don't get them till at least night 2 if not night 3 & 4. Then after that it's slow, but have made a catch as many as like 8 - 10 days later. What would the reason for no catches on night #1 be?
To much fresh human scent around trap? Because of my schedule I do need to set traps right before dark. And most of the time make remakes right before dark also, since I don't have time in the morning when I'm checking.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Oct 28, 2005 9:15:53 GMT -6
The thing I'm hearing here is the intangible called confidence.
I don't know why confidence has any bearing on any thing but I know for a fact it does.
Do what you have confidence in until your confidence levels changes.
Fascinating subject confidence.
Joel
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 28, 2005 9:52:10 GMT -6
well, my coyotes must be dumber than a box of rocks. last jan , following other trappers and dozens of callers, I on 3 occasions caught coyotes in less than 5 minutes after taking the first one out, swing back on a dead head and shine the set and by golly there is another one! also my first day catches are generally as good as any other day. I know if I see a track that sucker is dead meat. Like the old boy wanted a bank loan and the loan officer asked what he had for collateral and he retorted he had seen a mink track!
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Post by Steve Gappa on Oct 28, 2005 14:04:44 GMT -6
usually the reason for noi catches first couple of nights, means no coyotes came through.
And Mike...you don't believe me when I said human odor makes no difference here? My goodness man, have I steered you wrong yet..? LOL
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 28, 2005 14:42:19 GMT -6
what he said, none came by.
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Post by primetime on Oct 28, 2005 15:17:13 GMT -6
Ok the reason I question human odor a little is this.
Turkey hunting in the same areas I'm trapping I've had out a turkey decoy. I've watch the coyotes put the sneak on the decoy. The wind is blowing from the decoy to me, so the coyote does not wind me. He gets to within 10 yards of the decoy where we walked in and bolts like someone lit' a fire under his butt. WHY? Was it the decoy or was it the human odor?
BUT I have also had them mangle my decoy and THEN take off running like no tomorrow. Neither instances do they hang around and asses the situation. It's always "GOOD BYE!!!"
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Post by gunny on Oct 28, 2005 16:25:48 GMT -6
Steve,
What avoidance are you seeing;
Walking right past with no indication that a set is there?
Working the set, but backing off at 5-6 feet or further or closer?
Kicking back at the set?
Does switching to totally different bait/ lure combo help?
I'm curious.
Like Joel said, you gotta do what you gotta due to get the confidence back. I've had my confidence shattered a time or two. When that happens I carefully examine all the fundamental basics. And implement anal retentive back-up redundancy.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Oct 28, 2005 17:40:33 GMT -6
I have plenty of confidence- thats not a concern nor is catching coyotes. What drives me crazy, is seeing the set worked all over...but no tracks on the trap bed area. Not dug up now- its not a bedding problem nor an odor problem (at least in my experience, odors cause digging- so say I am 80% sure on this point) and for sure not a blending problem nor guiding.
Also keep in mind I'm talking a few occurances on long set traps- not a rash of daily happenings. But I try to little by little eliminate every miss. And like I said- remakes are as quick or really quicker to set up with a fresh trap. I hate having a driveby trap in the ground...sit there a week or so after a catch...a coyote finally comes by (I can see tracks and sign as well as the next) and works a set as described. And dig up the trap..wet rust...next time, fresh trap (this was inexperiements from last year) there he (or another) is.
A strive for perfection............
btw- I agree when having probelms- back to 1,2,3.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 28, 2005 17:59:55 GMT -6
turkey decoy- it could be either.
I've watched videos of predator calling, and every time a coyote approaches across the travel in line of scent of the hunter- hes gone- like right now! Why? Because the scent is fres enough, he knows you are there RIGHT NOW.
making a set and having it sit for a few hours, if that- makes your scent, in normal set making, checking on farmland country, unimportant to a coyote.
Farmland coyotes are used to farmers- the farmers, esp now- are all over their farms everyday it seems- its just business as usual for the yotes. Now- a substained activity like heavy hunting, will cause coyotes to move out of the way..but normal farming..and you are just part of that scene.
When we were collaring, I often had 3-4 people around a coyote set in both fresh sets and remakes- and at first I worried and cringed every time someone walked around the back of the set, spit, etc. But I found it did not matter. Sure, I still avoid "circling" a set whewn around it- but thining about it- I sure do it taking pictures and on remakes.
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Mark
Demoman...
Posts: 219
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Post by Mark on Oct 28, 2005 18:24:15 GMT -6
In my humble opinion you don't need to change traps. I remove skunk caught traps, but thats it.
I'll tell you why: I set two traps for coyote in a spot I catch a couple each of the last three years. call them set 1 and 2. set 2 got a coon, then a kitty cat, then a fox, then set 1 and 2 both connected with a coon each. set 1 then caught a fox. two days later set 2 caught a coyote. Same traps.
Another area caught a fox and then 3 days later a coyote.
Rust may be a problem, but I don't think dirty traps make a difference. The whole area stinks of critter anyway. If I can get the trap set, I will use it again.
Mark
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 28, 2005 18:29:33 GMT -6
tman, sometimes luck is just on the coyotes side that day , no more and no less,and it just takes another day or three to connect proper. I wouldn`t read too much into the rare visit and miss. If it was lots, then I`d start scratching my head, say if 1/10-20 in the truck, eh, so what, just go on and get him next time.IMHO tho, you get some good stinkum bait down that hole, it won`t happen often you see tracks and no worked hole.
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Post by Planes & Poison on Oct 28, 2005 18:48:31 GMT -6
The miracles of coal shale…….
When I set a trap, any time of year, clean or dirty, fresh set or remake, I bed the trap on coal shale, then cover with coal shale, and then top dress with dry dirt (summer) or waxed dirt (fall, winter, spring).
It eliminates this problem almost completely.
I started doing this three years ago per O'Gorman's comments to me. Prior to using coal shale all around my traps, all year, I did see refusals that I attributed to rusty traps.
I believe a rusty trap and a dirty trap are two different things. A dirty trap (contaminated with lure/bait, and coyote related odors due to catches) tends to be what gets dug up, though not an overly common problem I experienced. A rusted trap simply kept the coyote the last few feet from my set, which happened enough to affect my catch (be it fur or predator control).
When I was just bedding in dirt alone (no coal shale), I saw similar results as you trappnman, though not quite as extreme. Had I not have switched over to using coal shale; I do believe I would have ended up switching out traps that were rusty/rusting and replaced them with clean traps.
The downside to that is it requires a big inventory of traps so you constantly have clean traps to work with when you need to replace a rusty/rusting trap.
In my remake bag I keep a wire brush to clean traps as best I can after a catch. When they're wet (in the case of rain or snow) I usually pull handfuls of dry coal shale out of my dirt bag and use them to somewhat "scrub" the trap before I reset it. It's a fast way to get the trap adequately clean and fairly dry before I put it back in the. I feel this is the reason why I rarely have dug up traps due to lure contamination.
The trap isn’t completely clean, but everything in the circle smells of some type of animal odor, and the lure/bait odors I add as focal attractant point are what focus the coyote’s attention, thus keeping all attention off the trap.
Since I have gone to completely surrounding bedded traps in coal shale, I have eliminated a lot of refusals I attributed to rust and I can get away with rusty traps a lot more than I could prior to the implementation of coal shale.
We've had a "damp" October (trying not to offend flooded eastern trappers). It's raining as I type this. Point being, it's wet enough that after a catch, while a coyote is in a trap, it has time to rust. When it goes back into coal shale at a set (after being thoroughly scrubbed with dry coal shale), I feel like it slows the rust process down, though the trap is still rusty.
Prior to using coal shale, an October like this would have seen some refusals due to rust. But I haven’t seen a refusal due to rust at all this season.
A very accomplished coyote trapper I know believes that coal shale "locks" in odors better than other types of soil. Whether or not it's true I have no idea, but I can see how the theory has some merit as I’ve never heard of anyone who’s a big coal shale user advocate replacing traps if they’re rusty.
If too rusty, just cover deeper, and use more urine has always been the antidote.
Another opinion I have is in regards to check times. I don’t want to see a coyote trap within 72 hours. Longer than that is better. I don’t see nearly the number of refusals at sets as trappers who check every 24 hours do.
I often wonder how many refusals would become catches if nothing was changed. The set’s tempting but the coyote doesn’t want to get caught tonight. Yes, if you do everything right he should get caught on the first encounter with a set. But we all know that some coyotes simply have a higher degree of caution in their nature than others, and this may cause them to refuse a set. This would be seen on your first or second check when checking every 24 hours. But by 72 or 96 the coyote finally commits and gets caught (clean trap or original rusty trap). Thus I see a catch and have no complaints, whereas someone running every 24 hours feels the need to change something.
And I know the other end to this is why not change traps to get these wary coyotes now and not later. For me running several long lines, moving every 12-15 days I don’t see the need as I feel the coyote is getting caught which is why I don’t see so many refusals. But someone running every 24 and moving every few days would see this as beneficial. Yet Bob Wendt who moves often doesn’t feel rust affects anything.
Thus the cycle continues…
No wonder I love coyotes.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 28, 2005 19:50:50 GMT -6
hey trevor- welcome back! good post
You make a good point on the length of check- when you see a trap every day, you do see things that would even out over the long haul.
Actually, I'm kinda enjoying this, for me, new style. I'm making more fresh sets, 1/2 remakes I make back with fresh trap, other 1/2 I'm just punching in a new set.
Interesting on the coal shale.... Here, I have no doubt using plain dry dirt- which is somewhat granulated as it dried- allows more odor/air to pass through.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Oct 28, 2005 21:48:48 GMT -6
I'll let you coyote guys carry portions of the planet around to cover your traps with. lol!!
Joel
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