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Post by trappnman on Oct 26, 2005 19:31:29 GMT -6
I'm the first to think old school trapping ie. scarf over mouth, special boots isn't worth the effort, but am coming to the conclusion that the thought of changing a trap after a catch has merit.
As the years go by, I'm becoming more and more convinced, that the avoidance of coyotes after being in an area a while is caused by contaminatd traps- and that being primarilly rust.
Each year, I become more and more convinced that standbacks and not working the pattern is rust related.
so- from here on out, I'm changing ever trap that takes a canine, coon or skunk. Cats and possums I'll remake, cause neither claws/chews at a trap. But any shiny trap...replaced.
Right now I'm 50/50 in replacing trap at same set or pulling and making fresh set nearby.
Comments or opinions?
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Post by dj88ryr on Oct 26, 2005 19:40:12 GMT -6
I never remake with the same trap, started doing that a couple seasons ago, unless of course I don't have any clean traps left, and that gets to be less of a possibility each year. I even remake grinner catches with a new trap, with the rocky soil here, they can mar up a trap pretty good. Not 100% convinced our problem here is all rust related, but with the hole getting torn up, and lure all over the place, ( I use a big dollop remember ) I think the trap gets as contaminated as setting with gloves that have gotten lure on them. Someone on this forum suggested that to me, and I just accepted it and have been doing it that way ever since.
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Post by blakcoyote on Oct 26, 2005 19:43:18 GMT -6
Over the years,it has become apparent to me that old school is over kill.Being clean is important,but being clean just short of a hazmat suit is pretty much anal.But would agree rusty traps are a problem.If your traps are clean and waxed,I'm thinking the stand backs are pups,being there maybe a little more timid.One of my other old school peeves are the ones toting you need 40 acres of clear unobstructed flat land around a canine set to catch one.
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Yotes
Skinner...
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Post by Yotes on Oct 26, 2005 19:45:52 GMT -6
You rewax every trap after you make a catch even a non target animal...
Jason
Now thats trapping
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Post by dj88ryr on Oct 26, 2005 19:49:52 GMT -6
I have enough traps to just change it out, I try to dye and wax just once a year, did I say once before that I hate dicking with traps.. ;D
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Post by dj88ryr on Oct 26, 2005 19:52:33 GMT -6
One of my other old school peeves are the ones toting you need 40 acres of clear unobstructed flat land around a canine set to catch one. That wouldn't have flown up in NH, you just don't have that much open space, we caught our canines usually on logging roads tight to cover. Now here in PA, if you set close to cover, you have to expect to have a lot of grinners and skunks plugging your traps for a while. Nittany Lion had me move out from the cover 10 yards or so, and that cut the incidentals way down.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Oct 26, 2005 20:05:01 GMT -6
I'm old school on trapping close to cover.
I've caught hundreds of coyotes in forced cat sets so I know it can be done but if I wanted to target coyotes I'd be out in the open.
Joel
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Post by GaTrapper on Oct 26, 2005 20:48:32 GMT -6
lol i thought you were talkn bout the movie,lol
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Post by walkercoonhunter(Aaron L.) on Oct 26, 2005 20:53:06 GMT -6
but with the hole getting torn up, and lure all over the place, ( I use a big dollop remember ) I think the trap gets as contaminated as setting with gloves that have gotten lure on them. . on a quick point dj it is totally different..if the trap and the soil and surronding area smells the same your trap isnt going to emit a different odor for the canine to pick up on...and as for changing out traps after every catch..i just dont do it UNLESS it rusts.... but the main question here is if your trapping farm land that has all kinds of rusty metal in the ground,broken chisel points from the plows,parts falling from tractors,farm trucks,wagons,horse shoes(dj territory)etc..what makes a rusty trap any different? i might do a study this summer on just that in farm land trapping..because im not completely convinced that it plays a part in the catch scene... i feel if you have been trapping the same farms year after year the older(not wiser) canines are somewhat used to seeing your sets and shy from them... i challenge you steve to the myth...take a semi rusted trap..not a catch trap..unless its cleaned at the car wash) and take it to a farm and set it up just like any other set...for a week...then if nothing caught..pull it and set in a new trap(or fresh set..same as with the rusted trap)within 1-5 feet from the old...same lure and lets just see if it really makes a difference.....you up for the challenge? if i would have more coyotes here i would do it but im not a pro like you...lol
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Post by gunny on Oct 26, 2005 21:11:55 GMT -6
I always use the same trap for a remake. Whether it caught a badger, skunk whatever.
I used to take a piece of sagebrush and wipe the blood, hair and animal matter off the trap. Then shake some fresh sagebrush over the set.
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Post by ColdSteel on Oct 27, 2005 0:19:13 GMT -6
Tman I am sure there is alot of truth in your statement about rust on traps.I have limited experience with coyotes but to remove a trap after a catch of a animal I just don't have that much steel.Besides lets look at this way how many big number trappers smoke,dip, and go to the precautions to wash their clothes in scent free products?My opinion is if a trapper has enough land and isn't doing ADC work why not rake the cream and move to the next location and let the strong survive
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 27, 2005 1:36:40 GMT -6
I don`t do any of that stuff, not enough hours in the day , and I do well being what some would call filthy dirty. rust? on every fence the buggar crawls thru or under 50 times a night. I`m more concerened with disease making no animals to catch, and weather ruining my access. In fact those are the only two things that limit my catch
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Post by dj88ryr on Oct 27, 2005 4:45:36 GMT -6
Aaron, Can't say with 100% confidance, yes, the whole ground smells that way, and the critter won't smell a lured trap. But, if one has enough traps to do this, why not, it takes no more time, especially with split rings.
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Post by Possum on Oct 27, 2005 5:54:26 GMT -6
T-man: I pondered your words yesterday as I bounced along my line and was going to start a thread like this myself. YOu can change traps if you want--won't hurt, but I sure don't think it helps much. The other comment you made that you don't mind taking a leak in the vicinity of a set really makes me wonder.
Pee is important to coyotes. My dog will often mark over places I take a leak so I know he can smell it. Now you are saying a coyote is dumb enough to ignore human whiz 10 or 20 feet away from a set but shy away of a slightly rusting trap buried under an inch or so of soil. That doesn't really cut it with me.
As Blakcoyote says: I think stand-backs on remakes have to do with the peck order of the resident coyotes. A subservient coyote doesn't know the big dog you caught earlier is gone. It's interested in the smells (lure etc.) but it recognizes Big Dog's odor and figures if it screws with what's there too much, Big Dog is going to open can of whoop-a$$ on it. Same thing works in reverse. When I catch a pup, I figure my next catch (rusting trap or not) is likely to be a mature animal. Big Dog ain't afraid of being whipped by what the little dog was doing.
Another point: What are you going to do about your rusting rebars?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2005 6:16:46 GMT -6
I don't run the long sustained lines that some of you do, but I've been trapping canines in my spare time for about thirty years, and have noticed a couple things. One is that every time I get worried about lure, blood, or rust on a trap at a catch site and re-make a new set right next to the old set, I still catch the next canine in the old set with the dirty trap 95% of the time. This clean thing has it's limits. Also this is the first year in about 15 years that I've even waxed a trap, usually I just dye and don't worry about a little rust. Never used the speed dip. I will say that I don't have the time to really leave a trap out in the field for days and days, as I'm limited in time to trap, so my traps aren't really that rusty. Usually just have a set out for only three days or so at most. I get what can in the time I have to spend , and I usually connect with-in my self imposed time limits with good set to catch percentage. I also don't have alot of steel either and usually keep a pot of dye water on the shop stove through-out the season and just rinse off my traps and throw them in the hot dye, then store until the next time. Being on location and having a trap that will actually fire at the next visit, no matter what weather conditions you have at the time, is way more important to me, than whether the trap is a little scuffed up and rusty. Maybe just being in a location for awhile is more of a problem. The fear factor goes up in the survivors. The set area becomes the evil spot, saturated with suspicion. Using clean equipment probably helps, but I agree with Cold Steel. I can't help wondering if you wouldn't be better off taking that equipment elsewhere after a certain point.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 27, 2005 6:19:50 GMT -6
to begin with- fresh rust and old rust are two completely different things. To suggest a freshly rusted trap with wet rust is the same as rust on a piece of barbwire buried for 20 years is, IMNSHO, just wrong.
Add fresh rust to a torn up circle, and I SEE where it makes a difference.
Can you catch coyotes in rusty traps- of course you can- but does it cause refusals- of course it does.
lots of talk about keep moving to fresh areas- take the cream..this is fine for those trapping with 5-6 traps over 2-3 weeks .....not as practical trying to run longlines for many weeks. In such scenarios, I want EVERY coyote.
Possum- be curious as to how many coyotes you catch and how long you have been trapping them. Piss 20 feet away does what exactly? a coyote smells it then what? Ever set at gates? apples and oranges on this.
And no I am not a super clean trapper- any that remember the old discussions knows that quite well. I use same gloves for everything, boots, blah, blah.
But a rusty trap- and people like the Leggetts, O'Gorman strongly state the same (and no bashing here!) thing- DOES spook canines. Yes, you can mist, etc...but to be safe, to be sure that the RUSTY TRAP will not be there and spook the next coyote the comes along.. I'm going to change out every coon, coyote and skunk catch- the 3 that really shine up a trap. Cats and possums- don't scratch, bite a trap- no problem there. I'm not talking DIRTY traps, I'm talking rusty traps.
Keep in mind I'm not talking troubles with REMAKES..I never have had trouble and don't now catching coyotes in remakes- I catch by far more coyotes i remakes than fresh sets, simply because few sets sit more tan 2-3 days without catching something...so its NOT a remake problem.
I've caught as many as 10 canines in the same rusty trap. I've caught 100 coyotes plus a few fox in rusty traps in a season.... running speed dipped traps and rust.
But I'm not blind. I can SEE when I pull a trap, and there are tracks going all around the pattern but not on the trap- that SOMETHING is a problem and that when a new trap is placed there- that coyote is caught.
Hmmn........
I'm talking replacing the trap might add 5-10 coyotes a season...maybe a lot more. Takes 1 minute to change trap. I've not done it for 20 plus years of coyote trapping- but I'm doing it now because I SEE the results. Did it some last season, and could IMMEDIATELY see results, enough to convince me with what I see this season.
Use to keep records of pups, matures, etc...never saw any correlation between catching one first than the other. Or males and females.
you brought up rebar before- I've always dyed rebar and most years wax the top 1/2. Since going to disposable, don't bother to wax my rebar any longer.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 27, 2005 6:35:16 GMT -6
If your traps are clean and waxed,
Exactly- no probelmos... but after a catch, they are "clean" (no dye, no wax) and rusty.
Never had any problem with working a set and avoiding the trap unless 1) different textured pattern 2) different colored pattern or 3) rust. The first 2 have been long cured.
by pattern, here I mean "over the trap" not the extended pattern.
Usually just have a set out for only three days or so at most.
not a problem in 2-3 days. Leggetts says 3 days and he changes traps. I too did that, and it for sure makes a difference. But I find its just as easy to change trap at a remake, then to do it 2 days later. 3,4,5,..days no problems
Many of my traps are out for 4-6 weeks. minumum out for 10 days, 2 weeks.
please keep this point in mind- it seems to be overlooked everytime I bring this up.
I am NOT talking an old rusted trap. Wiley's traps for example- are all old rust and he does quite well for himself. BUT I am talking about a trap shined to a polish by a catch, and then RUSTING with fresh red, wet rust underground at the set.
BIG difference.
Also keep in mind in a normal scenerio- 60-70% of what you catch are YOY- pups that never saw a set or smelled al ure. And the old dogs- I recaught many of my collared coyotes on the same farms orignally trapped on with the same lures, same sets...so I don't put a lot of stock in memory past a few weeks or so concerning this, at least..
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 27, 2005 7:31:21 GMT -6
my animals here and in wyo or ks. don`t care if there is fresh rust or old rust, lucky break for me I guess as changing every trap that caught a canine or coon or skunk would be 50%/day on some days. so time consuming it would essentially occupy my whole time to the point I could never get anything else done, like rotating to new ground, sleeping etc.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 27, 2005 7:47:47 GMT -6
once again - you are saying what you want to say- but its not the point. if thats your consclusion, you have missed the entire point of what I was trying to say.
you have said time and time and time again, that you come into an area, trap every canine out in 2-5 days...6 in a row like tent poles or something to that effect... and on your way.
Right?
Now read what I wrote.
I'm not that good Bob- I do not get every coyote in 2-3 days and move on.
I'm there for- what in my area has proven to be the most effective in numbers- the long haul playing the harvest. At least 60% of corn is still in here, lots of beans too and tey are still putting up hay- plus baling beans and corn stubble. Traps HERE need to be in forat least 10 days in GOOD areas. I have one location that gives me 12-16 coyotes over 6 weeks. 7 so far in 2 1/2 this year. All in the past week. After 10 days- no coyotes- you'd be gone. I know my area. In for the long haul. And I find a rusty trap...matters. Cure it with urine, cure it for sure with a new trap. I can't explain it any clearer than that.
Also remember I have NOT been doing this EVER, really, until now. So keep in mind although I might have fallen out of the truck in this coyote trapping thing- it wasn't yesterday and it wasn't at night. I did not come to this conclusion quickly and without considerable evidence. And I'm seeing it right now....
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Post by trappnman on Oct 27, 2005 7:48:58 GMT -6
and I have also said- that if you are continually making catches- the trap doesn't GET TIME TO RUST (caps cuz I'm yelling)...its when it sits for a week or more.....
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